Windstar Massive Chugging

[Wilson77]

Hi, I have spent hours on your awsome forum and have gained tons of knowledge, however I need further assistance. I have 2002 Windstar that has been chugging for at least a month. CEL, po302, po303. (3.8, 125km)
Its not...
fuel filter, plugs, wires, did compression test, tested fuel injectors, coil pack, egr valves cleaned out, IAC, MAF. I also removed upper intake cover to inspect insolate bolts (whatever that tsb said) they seemed ok. thats when i cleaned out the egr valves. (I didn't take off the piece to get to the gaskets, just the first covering) I also took the sensor off the cat converter and fired it up. Still ran like crap.
Is there anything else I should check? I'm really at a loss here.

Also CEL flashes from time to time. I guess that means its misfiring. I no longer can drive it cause its really bad. Hope you can help me!!

[Airjer_]

When does the symptom occur? All the time, sometimes, when accelerating?

[Wilson77]

All the time!! Idle or accelerating.

[Andrew1941]

just a guess, but the egr valve could be stuck wide open which would cause it run rough or you could have a large vacuum leak. You probably would get a P0401 or P0402 code with the valve being stuck open, but you never know. I am not sure what to do if the valve were stuck open? How would a person test this? About all I can think of is if you remove the valve and plug the hole to the engine. If it gets better, then the valve is the issue. Excess ehaust gas causes the engine to choke out. In a proper working EGR system, the valve does not open at idle, so if you use another vacuum line to force the valve open while idling the engine will stall, but prior to that it will run rough, so if you were stuck somewhere in between, maybe ???

If you have a vacuum leak you might get a P0174 and you would run rough if it was large enough leak. Did you replace the isolator bolt grommets when opened the intake? The gaskets in the manifold body are typically reusable, so they probably were alright to reuse, but the grommets on the bolts are no good to keep unless they were green. The bad ones are black.

[Andrew1941]

Also, I know you said the spark plugs are fine, but I recently experienced the engine running extremely bad and the problem was the spark plugs. Did you change the plugs yourself or did you get someone to do it? If a proper spark plug socket with the rubber internal lining was not used, you may have cracked a sparke plug. This would cause the engine to run like crap and there would be very little power (this is experience talking now). In the end I found the cracked one and replaced all the plugs using a proper socket and then all the wires, after that she runs like a new van. Just a thought of something to go back and double check.

[LeSabre97mint]

Wilson77

Welcome to AFs!

I take it that you have looked through the post at the top of this forum. I copied the P0300's for you.

P0300 Random cylinder misfire detected that PCM cannot narrow down to a specific cylinder
P0301 Misfire on cylinder 1 (rear bank passenger side) (often caused by clogged EGR ports
P0302 Misfire on cylinder 2 (rear bank middle)
P0303 Misfire on cylinder 3 (rear bank driver's side)
P0304 Misfire on cylinder 4 (front bank passenger side (often caused by clogged EGR ports)
P0305 Misfire on cylinder 5 (front bank middle)
P0306 Misfire on cylinder 6 (front bank driver's side)
Misfire can be caused by a spark issue, spark plug, spark plug wire, coil pack. or by a dirty fuel injector (very common), or nonfunctioning fuel injector
CEL will flash when misfire is happening indicating possible condition that can harm the catalytic converter(s) because if caused by no spark, raw fuel can be entering the catalytic converter.
Do a search on your P030x code for more information.

Have you cleared the codes? How bad were the EGR ports? Were any of them pluged? What year is your Windstar? Both of the codes are coming from the rear bank. There is a link there.

Regards,

Dan

[Wilson77]

Thanks for the replys. I did have a po174 code for a short time but not any more so never thought about it again. Compression test was fine so I figure I couldn't have a vacuum leak.

Just to answer you....Its a 2002 and egr ports weren't bad at all.
Plugs and wires were changed by a mechanic about 6 wks ago. We were 4hrs away from home and van suddenly started chugging and cel came on. (We pulled off highway to switch drivers, I was pulling back on highway and floored it, my bad, it backfired real loud and immediatly the problem started.) Took it to mechanic who read misfire in #2, changed plugs and wires, left shop and van was 95% better. Cel came back on after couple hrs driving but then went away. A week or so later starting running really rough and cel was back on. Fooled around with it for a few more weeks then started this thread.

I just came back from a local scrap yard who had an "anything you can carry out for $50 sale". Man, I spent 3 hours stripping off all kinds of goodies from a 2002 Windstar. So.....the isolator bolt grommits were green so I took the whole intake and will be replacing my bad bolts with the new ones. I also discovered that the intake should be in three pieces, and my van didn't have the middle one. I was really surprised. I have also taken off my fuel injectors and cleaned them exactly how the forum advises, because I just learnt that even if your meter tells you the injector is ok, that doesn't mean its not clogged. Bad assumption.

Anyways, as soon as I can get everything put back together I'll know if my problem has been fixed and we can go from there!

[LeSabre97mint]

Wilson77

You are a man after my own heart! I've never had a $50.00 all that you can carry but I have been known to get a lot of useful items from the bone yard.

Do keep us informed on your progress on the van.

Dan

[Wilson77]

I'm so frustrated!!!! All is back together and still runs just as bad. Took it for a 5min ride, no cel or codes yet. Still running rough with a lack of power. I put a pinhole just before the cat converter to test that and no luck.
Just before all our problems started the transmission was rebuilt, new trs sensor was put on. Could this have anything to do with my problems now. I still have a limited powertrain warranty too.
PLEASE HELP ME!!!!

[Airjer_]

Originally Posted by Wilson77

Compression test was fine so I figure I couldn't have a vacuum leak.

Compression doesn't care if you have a vacuum leak.

Originally Posted by Wilson77

I put a pinhole just before the cat converter to test that and no luck.

How exactly did you check the exhaust with a pinhole?

[Wilson77]

I learnt from guys who work in exhaust shops that if you put a pinhole in front of the cat to let it breath, if the lack of power was due to a clogged cat, it would then run smoother. I had no change.

I have also done the propane test in search of vacuum leaks....Nothing!

[Airjer_]

A pin hole will do nothing. There is a backpressure test that can be done with a thexton test kit that will put a small hole in the pipe with a special screw that a pressure guage can be attatched tlo. After testing a solid screw is used to seal up the hole.

If you think about the diameter of the exhaust and the volume at which it flows a pin hole isn't going to tell you much.

I have had better results either removing the O2's or the cats to see if there is an improvement in performance. Usually start with the O2 if I feel a difference than I go with the the cat.

[Wilson77]

I actually did take the 02 sensor off the other day and there was no change.
Thanks for all that useful info.

[CnlK]

Did you replace the coil pack or inspect it? In your initial post the CEL indicated misfire on #2 & #3 cyl's. Have these codes been set again?
If you have access to a timing light, clamp on to each wire and look for consistent firing. Wouldn't hurt to check fuel pressure either. Special gauge required for that one. Try unplugging the vac hose at the fuel pressure regulator (plug end of hose to prevent vac leak), this will give you a little more fuel pressure. While not common, a couple of people have had a loose crankshaft pulley. If pulley is loose and key is sheared, the iginition timing will be off.

[Wilson77]

I tested Coil Pack with an ohm meter. Fuel pressure is ok. I don't have access to a timing light. Also thought of evap system as I really smell carbon but don't have proper tools for that.
I think I will finally take it in to be diagnosed. However, I have to wait till codes come up but just took for 30min ride and only codes pending. Its really hard to drive but I guess I'll have to and hope I don't do further damage. I'll keep ya posted.