cam seal leaks and leaks and leaks...

[carpenter_jai]

Hi,

I've removed the cam seal on my 95 3 cyl 3 times now. I keep doing it cause it keeps leaking. Eventually it gets bad enough to destroy the timing belt (I keep a spare with me at all times as well as a serpentine belt spare). There was some light gouging on the metal that the seal sits in, so I took out the dremel and smoothed it out. The leaking after that was decreased a bit, but in the three months since then, it has got worse again. I'm losing a gallon every two weeks. I'm sure the city doesn't require my lubricating the roads any more than my parking space needs a layer of water repellency.

My thought (until I find a suitable used engine to replace this one) is to take the seal out and use some RTV sealant to make it really solid. Does anyone think this would work? Anyone have a better idea? Should I just go to the wreckers and get a new head?

Thanks for any ideas,

Jai

[doug2060]

It doesn't look good. You may need a new head. Try looking on ebay if you can't find one anywhere. Maybe someone here will have one they may be willing to sell. You may be able to fill the holes dents or gouging with JB weld and smooth/even it out. Then use RTV in and around the seal to provide some extra grip. In this case I would recommend something that dries a bit more firm. Maybe it will work and JB is always a cheap way to go but is sometimes a successful repair. I can't count how many times it has saved me a lot of money. If you do use JB weld get the original. The 15 minute stuff is not as durable. Give it plenty of time to cure. Good luck...

[Crvett69]

have you checked the cam end itself for grooves or nicks? if it has either it will chew the seal up fast. if the seal is walking itself out of the holder then you can use a little locktite on the outside to hold it in place or some silicone. also its really easy to roll edge of seal over as your installing it, i use some wheel beaing grease to prelube it, i put top part of seal on then pulling down lightly on seal i put bottom part on, it keeps lip from rolling over as you install it. also make sure flat side of seal is out and maybe try a different store for a different brand. also make sure its not the lower seal leaking or the headgasket itself spitting oil out. once you replace it try leaving cover off and drive it like that, if its leaking you can usually spot exactly where its coming out.

[carpenter_jai]

I have a 96 with a bad engine, but it could be the best solution for my problem. The head should be good since the problem is oil blow by in #1 cylinder. Will the head from a 96 3 cylinder fit onto the block of a 95 3 cylinder?

Jai

[Johnny Mullet]

Originally Posted by carpenter_jai

Will the head from a 96 3 cylinder fit onto the block of a 95 3 cylinder?

Yes, it will be a direct fit.

[wetback1]

Before you throw the baby out with the bath water, a couple of things: First, are you removing the #1 cam bearing cap to change the seal, or just working it out with a screwdriver? If you're removing the cap you should be cleaning the mating surfaces and placing a small amount of permatex on the base of the cap before reinstalling.

You mentioned that the metal the seal sits in was slightly damaged - I don't know how it could get damaged but you could coat the outside of the seal with permatex before installing it, this won't hurt anything.

As long as the cam itself isn't scored and you're not rolling the seal over on installation the oil must be coming around the outside of the seal and as long as you clean the parts well a coat of silicone should solve the problem.

[Woodie83]

Do not put Permatex or any other sealant on the bearing cap. There's an oil drainback passage machined into the mating surface of the cap. If you put anything on there, it will clog up that passage and oil will build up between the bearing and the seal with no way back into the engine. That will cause an oil leak, or the seal to blow out completely.

[carpenter_jai]

My cam seal was the leaker, so I pulled the head off my 96. Before I parked the car a year ago, it was burning more oil than gas. I kept fouling the number 1 cylinder. I am guessing that the rings went south and that is what the problem is with that engine. If I am wrong however, than I don't want to put this head on my 95.

Can anyone tell by the photos if the bottom of the valves are ok? The gasket seems to be in ok shape too. A new one is $100 and being thin, I'd like to be frugal. Can I get away with using it again?


a little more clean up and...

[Rooy]

Head gaskets don't get reused. $100? Search eBay and you can get one MUCH cheaper. Even Advance Auto only wants $50, which is still too much for just the gasket IMO. I'd get a gasket kit that includes valve stem seals and replace those while the head is off. That will require a valve spring compressor, but while you're at it you could check the condition of the valves and seats and lap them if they're still serviceable.

Bottoms of the valves? Don't know why they wouldn't be OK. If the valves are very burnt you'll see chunks missing around the perimeter, but the actual valve seating area is what you should be concerned with. Looks to be a lot of carbon buildup in the chamber, probably from oil getting past the rings, as you said.

[fubard]

I've bought gasket sets off Ebay twice now. The cost is usually $50 with shipping. You may as well do the cam belt & tensioner plus the water pump.
Like you, my local suppliers want about $100 for a headgasket only...duma$$e$.I also get parts from autoparts and have been pleased with the service. They're in Canada like us so there's no border crap to deal with. If you plan on keeping the beast you may as well do it right. I've taken both heads I have to a shop and I have the valve seals replaced and the head LIGHTLY resurfaced.The seals came with the gasket set. They can also test for proper valve sealing.I pay about $220 for the service.

Good Luck !

Originally Posted by carpenter_jai

My cam seal was the leaker, so I pulled the head off my <kasnip>

[brivers]

I'm assuming your cam seal goes bad on the inside part of the seal. If you look at the cam where the seal touches, see if there is a scar or burr that may have happened during a previous assemble. If there is (or even if there is'nt) I would use some 600 sand paper and polish it. There has to be something there to go through so many seals. I agree with woodie, don't use anything on the outside of the seal, but make sure its dry. I use a little spray of either to clean the mating surface. Good luck.

[doug2060]

I got my last head gasket off ebay with all the gaskets and seals and head bolts for less than $60.00. Do a thorough search.

[carpenter_jai]

When I took the cover off the timing belt, I found lot's of oil. I decided to go ahead and change the head. I've continued this post under a new thread. Cylinder Head Replacement. http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=933675



Jai

[carpenter_jai]

I'm really late in writing a reply to how things went with this. To date the car has been running fairly smooth since I completed this repair in February. Thanks to everyone who helped with advice!

What I ended up finding is that the cam seal was ok, but the crank seal was bad. I'm sure somebody had suggested that. A little persistence was needed to break the crank seal bolt. I used a wrapped scaffolding pipe over my long 1/2 drive ratchet. I rested it against the motor mount and turned over the engine. It worked easily the first time. I got the seal out and it was badly cracked. I think I was loosing about a litre a week, so it really adds up.

I got it put back together good. I did have trouble with the timing cover though. It's not the original (which was pretty destroyed from a number of stupid things-fix your oil leaks fast!). With the timing cover on, the water pump mount was tight to the cover. I'm running without it and hence, haven't been able to check timing. I returned to how it was before the whole process. That is fully advanced. I thing it was +10 when I checked it.

I am getting poor mileage. I've always got pretty crappy mileage. About 14 km/l or 33 MPG. Other than that, the only other thing is that to have no squeal from the alternator belt, I keep it so tight, it sounds like there's a turbo under the hood. A friend noticed it right away. I wonder if an out of aligned water pump pulley could do it? (there's one bolt hole that I spun the thread out on).

Other than that, it runs well. I have fixed up a few odds and ends and cleaned it up. I'm glad I took the time to do it. Still a great car!

Jai