TS-13 problems... Gunze to the rescue??

[bizzychris]

Hi all

I've had a problem with clear coat. The first time I used Tamiya TS-13 on a model. It was a disaster. It had burned the paint off high areas and somehow darkened the tone of the paint. This resulted in a paint-stripping and repaint.

Then, I browsed AF for previous threads addressing my problem. One solution I found was to spray the clear on within 15 minutes after the last colour coat... and NO WET COATS. I've used this method for my last couple models.

Problems with this was the tedious orange peel due to NO WET COATS. Also, I only have 15 minutes for the colour coat to dry and put on any decals or details I want under the clear coat.

Since my can of TS-13 has run out, I'd like to switch brands. I visited my LHS and the only other brand they stock is Gunze. I'd like to know If the problems stated above are still present in Mr Top Coat and Mr Super Clear since they are all lacquers. Also, what's the difference between the two?

Help!!!

PS. I use Tamiya lacquers for colour and I do NOT have access to an airbrush. =(

[MPWR]

Originally Posted by bizzychris

Then, I browsed AF for previous threads addressing my problem. One solution I found was to spray the clear on within 15 minutes after the last colour coat... and NO WET COATS. I've used this method for my last couple models.

I'm all about light mist coats- but why in the world would you wait only 15 min between coats?? A time limit like that is appropriate only when messing with enamels. With lacquers it's safer to wait longer. I would strongly recommend applying light coats (no wet coats!) and waiting an hour or two in between. That way you can gently sand out any texture that develops between coats, and your final coats can be very very smooth. Warming your spraycan with the hot water trick can help alot also, especially in the last couple of coats.

Also, give the paint overnight before you start with the first coat of clear. Don't ever rush yourself with lacquers. It's how beautiful paint jobs are ruined.

[ZoomZoomMX-5]

B-501 Mr. Topcote is not a lacquer, it's an acrylic. It sprays differently, but doesn't affect lacquers, so you might prefer it. It's like industrial-strength Future in a spray can. It dries really fast, and to a harder/slicker finish than TS-13. It's harder to polish out. It's great stuff once you are used to it.

You can spray wet coats of Tamiya clear, but you have to build up to them carefully...wait 15 mins. or so, start to do mist coats, but after several mist coats with time to dry in between you can do a mist coat and a wet coat w/o damage. You just have to be patient and not do it all at once. Mr. Topcote won't be a magic pill, but it won't affect lacquer or decals underneath (though those decals must be completely, thoroughly dry...a couple days or at least overnight in a dehydrator). One idea would be to do all your TS-13 mist coats in 20 minute intervals one day, let it dry overnight, and the next day carefully wetsand the mist coats, then apply another couple mist coats and a final wet coat. Results, if done carefully, should be impressive.

The other Gunze Mr. Super clear may be a hotter enamel. Not sure how it reacts to Tamiya sprays.

Get some of the B-501 Topcote and another can of Tamiya TS-13, and practice practice practice. Stunning results are very possible w/Tamiya sprays and clearcoat.

[rockinanko]

I'm here in singapore, with temperatures ranging from 25 to 33 degree celcius & 65 to 90% humidity all year round.

i have no problem with my TS13 doing gloss coats.
i've tried using top coat & the likes once but i ended up stripping the whole body again...i don't know why but it just misted up, unlike the TS13.

yes, i apply 3 dry gloss with 15mins interval than 2 wet ones at 60mins apart...then i sealed the container & bring it out to sun-bake.

no problem!

[flhansen]

Originally Posted by ZoomZoomMX-5

The other Gunze Mr. Super clear may be a hotter enamel. Not sure how it reacts to Tamiya sprays.

Get some of the B-501 Topcote and another can of Tamiya TS-13, and practice practice practice. Stunning results are very possible w/Tamiya sprays and clearcoat.

Fully agree on that about practice, practice, practice. I have used B-501 for years now with no yellowing or cracking.

But I will caution about Mr. Super Clear. It is very strong and will attack decals, so I seldom use it unless it is a street car with no decals.

I'm experimenting wit various Hiroboy, Finisher products, but as these are new it is too early to tell about any ill effects on the longer term.

Flemming

[Didymus]

Originally Posted by bizzychris:

It had burned the paint off high areas and somehow darkened the tone of the paint.

That is very strange. For one thing, why would it "burn" the paint off the high areas and not elsewhere?

I'm not sure I agree with your diagnosis. I - and thousands of other modelers - have used Tamiya TS-13 clear coat with zero problems of that kind. I suspect the problem lay somewhere else.

What kind of paint were you using for your color coat? How did you prep it before you applied the clear coat?

Using TS-13 over Tamiya TS-series spray-can lacquers, I generally let the color coat dry overnight - or even for a few days - and then use 1000 or 1500 grit paper to clean up any problems. Then I apply decals. When they are good and dry - several hours, at least - I put on the TS-13 clear coat, starting with a couple of light coats, and then a wet coat. As you say, a wet coat minimizes orange peel.

I'm sure Gunze paints are just fine if used properly, but I doubt that the Tamiya TS-13 was the source of the
problems that you experienced.

Ddms

[kaho]

What color coat did you use?
I had a similar case as you, but I was using TS13 over tamiya acrylic.
As mentioned, light mist coats are needed to make sure the clear goes on properly, otherwise it will wash paint off any high spots and edges.
It has been a while for me since I used tamiya spray cans, once I got my airbrush/compressor combination I had gotten used to real automotive paints and clear.

[ZoomZoomMX-5]

Originally Posted by Didymus

That is very strange. For one thing, why would it "burn" the paint off the high areas and not elsewhere?


Ddms

Oh, Tamiya TS-13 certainly will "burn" (actually it will make it so thin it runs off) through edges if it's applied too hastily to a color coat that's not cured and perhaps isn't thick enough.

Not sure how it darkened; but it's obvious that user error was the biggest cause of problems, not the paint itself. Once Tamiya sprays are mastered, they're easy, but some builders manage to have a lot of problems because they practice only on their finished projects, and not ahead of time on spoons or scrap bodies/plastic to really learn what it will do before a disaster strikes. Reading tutorials is one thing, the person also has to actually do the work, and mistakes, to really learn.

[Didymus]

Originally Posted by kaho

I had a similar case as you, but I was using TS13 over tamiya acrylic.
As mentioned, light mist coats are needed to make sure the clear goes on properly, otherwise it will wash paint off any high spots and edges.

That doesn't account for the "darkening," but it makes sense. The lacquer thinner in the TS-13 dissolved the acrylic paint and washed it off. I've never had that problem because I've always used it over TS-series lacquers.

I think the lacquers are good and the clearcoat is great, but if the OP wants to use an acrylic color coat, it's probably best to use an acrylic clearcoat like X-22. (Maybe it comes in spraycans outside the U.S.) Then he wouldn't have rush to put on the decals and apply the clearcoat.

Ddms

[craig34]

Yea the light mist coats is a must.

[ZoomZoomMX-5]

Originally Posted by Didymus

I think the lacquers are good and the clearcoat is great, but if the OP wants to use an acrylic color coat, it's probably best to use an acrylic clearcoat like X-22. (Maybe it comes in spraycans outside the U.S.) Then he wouldn't have rush to put on the decals and apply the clearcoat.

The OP's last line was pretty clear: he uses TS lacquers, he does not use an airbrush. He may end up more confused than anything if this thread goes off course any more...

[Didymus]

Originally Posted by ZoomZoomMX-5

The OP's last line was pretty clear: he uses TS lacquers, he does not use an airbrush. He may end up more confused than anything if this thread goes off course any more...

If he isn't using an acrylic color coat, what could explain the color coat being "burned" off the high areas?

Ddms

[stevenoble]

I have had this darkening effect myself when I sprayed TS13 over a silver finish once.It eats away at the surface, lifts the metallic particles, makes them pool up and then dries again.So you get all the metallic pigments concentrated in certain areas, thus the paint appears darker in some places not others.I'm not sure if this would happen the same on non metallic colours though.
I know many people swear by TS13 and use nothing else and get great results with it, but it just doesn't suit my style of painting.All that care and mist coats and letting it dry before wet coats is too much trouble, when there are far better alternatives available.If you have no airbrush available then the Gunze top coat comes to mind available in aerosol and it's kind on decals too.

[ZoomZoomMX-5]

Originally Posted by Didymus

If he isn't using an acrylic color coat, what could explain the color coat being "burned" off the high areas?

Ddms

As I previously explained, this is what TS-13 does if applied too thick/wet, especially over a basecoat that's not thick enough. Lacquer will "attack" lacquer; enamels can attack enamels (I used to have this problem when airbrushing Testors enamels; clearcoat applied too heavily/quickly would react with colors, especially metallics). I see this effect a lot on models painted w/Tamiya TS 51 (I think), a very rich dark blue that has typically weak pigment; once TS clear is applied the edges around all the panel lines get light.

With metallics, as stevenoble has stated, it's probably safest to apply mist coats of TS-13 but top it off w/wet coats of B-501 that doesn't react with the metallic. I airbrushed my Gloss Aluminum and TS-13 on my 250 TR but I applied one wet coat of TS-13 over all that, and I got a slight "halo" around the raised center hood hump. And that's after spraying the last few coats of Gloss Aluminum through the airbrush w/more and more TS-13 mixed into it before going to all-clear to attempt to avoid the issue. It happens, and I do what I have to do to prevent the problem as much as possible, and learn to live w/o perfection if it's not that bad. I like TS-13 too much to switch to a different clearcoat, B-501 is a bit harder to polish out and can only find it via mail order from Japan. If I could get it as easily/readily as TS-13, I'd use it a lot more.

[klutz_100]

Originally Posted by ZoomZoomMX-5

As I previously explained, this is what TS-13 does if applied too thick/wet, especially over a basecoat that's not thick enough. ...I see this effect a lot on models painted w/Tamiya TS 51 (I think), a very rich dark blue that has typically weak pigment; once TS clear is applied the edges around all the panel lines get light.

Agree with this 200%
My first build had exactly this happen with that exact color. I was too heavy handed with the TS-13 and it dissolved and pulled the panel lines.

Because, unlike Bob, I have easier access to Gunze clears than I do Tamiya, I have used them ever since and can recommend them as very good products.

However I still have a couple of cans of TS-13 and will probably use it my next build since my overall experience has grown over the past couple of years and I want to beat that TS-13 sucker!