Potential Of B18C1?

[ox03]

[As cross-posted in the '92+ Civic forum...]

An '00 EX wants to swap in a B18C1 w/ a Garret T04 setup. Model year unknown. Which model year B18C1 is considered the most venerable and desired? What is the typical transmission used? On average, what kind of numbers (WHP, WTQ SAE) can be expected to be put down? What is the streetable WHP/WTQ limit of the B18C1 and what kind of numbers can be expected to be put up (60', 1/4 , MPH)? Generally speaking.

A little background info: I hail from Los Angeles, CA and boost around town in a BPU '03 Cobra. Mods listed in sig. Put down 420 RWTQ and 390 RWTQ pre-pulley and tune. Mid-12s are feasible. Used to troll the streets in a '91 HKS Stage IV MR-2 Turbo. '00 B18C1/T04 wants to run, straight-line, no juice. I thought I would post a few questions so as to prepare myself for the upcoming race. Many questions!

What does the torque curve of a stock B18C1 look like? Where are the sweet spots? Any dyno charts, graphs available? I envision taking the hole shot and then fighting to keep the lead. Or would it be vice-versa? I should be able to put down at least 450 RWHP, 450 RWTQ and low-12s on street tires by the time we meet up. I will certainly take into account additional mods (suspension, drivetrain, ignition), but as of now am concerned with the oft-mentioned B18C1/T04 combo...

[casperGSR]

okie... first things first, as far as how much whp the car's gonna throw down depends on what type of internal work he has done. As long as this person is somewhat intelligent they will only be boosting serious lbs if they have some decent internal work done to the block. If he's running stock internals don't expect him to run much more the 9 lbs unless he has no regards for the impact on his motor. Now if he has some time thrown into the block like new pistons, rings, rods, titanium sleeves, etc. then expect to see some higher lbs of boost been pushed. If he's running 15 lbs or more he'll give you a run for your money cause a civ clearly weighs less then a cobra. As far as tranny goes he's gonna wanna have the GSR tranny to match the GSR motor. Stock the B18C1 pushes 170 to the flywheel so figure 145 or so the wheels. Strap a T04 turbo to it and run 12 or 13 lbs, some internal work and some other extras on it you'll see whp in the 300's easily. Not sure what the powerband is on the cobra but a B18C1 with a T04 powerband is definately gonna be stronger on the higher end cause once that turbo spools up to full potential... seeeeeyaaaaaaa.... I know I didn't answer everything but hopefully this will help ya out a little.

[ox03]

Looks as if the '00 upgrades his internals, it is game over for me. No problem. But I have a feeling he is going to stay with the stock block and head. So a B18C1/T04 w/ stock internals = 9 PSI = 250 WHP? 280 WHP? What kind of numbers can this setup put up in terms of:

1. 60' times
2. 1/4 times
3. Trap MPH

We plan to run at the strip and a few freeway rolls. Much thanks, casperGSR.

[VTEC_hawk]

280hp to the wheels is possible with proper tuning. Say all he does is the B18C1/T04, doesn't run it on the dyno for an hour or two to tune it for proper air/fuel, and just pulls it out on the street to run. He'll probably be at 230-240hp to the wheels. Assuming everything goes to plan and he has the race of his life - he can pull a low-mid 14... maybe... MAYBE 13.999 if he doesn't order the super-sized combo at McDonalds before the race.

Just my 2 cents - I could be wrong.

[VTEC_hawk]

1> 60' - 2.1-1.9
2> 1/4 - 14.5-13.9
3> mph - 96-100

my guess. (?)

[KrNxRaCer00]

if he's puttin 230-240 TO THE WHEELS, then he'd be DEEP into 13's. i mean...that means he's pushin around 270-280 at the flywheel. i'd say with a turbo tuned to taht power, look for 13's easy, even w/ that biggie sized fries... (unless the driver weighs 1000lbs.)

[casperGSR]

9lbs of boost with a stock gsr block and head in a civ... I would think that 13's should not be a problem provided the kid now's how to drive.

[ox03]

Sounds as if powershifted high-12s are possible on a cold evening. What about the B18C1/T04 w/ stock internals vs. B18B/T04 w/ stock internals? The Civic guys mentioned that the B18B would be the engine of choice...

[GSR]

250-300whp isn't hard on a standalone+decent sized turbo for ls-gsr respectively. I have seen more than a couple ls's go 12.7-13.1, 2.0 60ft, 100+ trap...stock compression/internals, full interior.

60ft times are directy affected by traction (which our fwd's lack )so that will depend on tires and suspension setup. On the stock supsension and/or street radials dont expect better than 2.3. Drag radials - 2.0-2.2. Wrinkle walls+nice stiff rear+traction bars - 1.7-1.9

[ox03]

Thanks for the additional info, GSR. BTW guys, I went in for a post-pulley SoCalDiablo <http://www.socaldiablo.com/> tune this afternoon. Added 15 RWHP SAE and 40 RWTQ SAE on heatsoaked pulls. This was running 100 octane on a 91 octane tune. So timing was being pulled for 100, leading to a slow air/fuel burn rate and a slightly rich condition. An additional 20 RWHP should be realized with straight 91. Optimal A/F ratio for '03s is 11.6:1-11.8:1. I weigh 3800 lbs. w/ driver, 450/430 conservatively. Low-12s on street tires are feasible. Thought you guys might like to know, in the event you run into one on the streets.

[GSR]

no poblem, but..

Originally posted by ox03
This was running 100 octane on a 91 octane tune. So timing was being pulled for 100, leading to a slow air/fuel burn rate and a slightly rich condition.

if aything you should bump the timing. higher octane rating allows for less chance of pre=ignition/detonation...why would you pull timing? I bet your manifold was glowing red when you were done, lol

11.6-11.8 sounds kinda rich, you sure thats right? then again i work mostly on hondas...

yeah them 03's are no joke. Theyre pushing 370-380hp/tq here in tx straight out of the lot (well after break-in period) and i've heard of a few 400hp/tq bone stock in other states

[ox03]

GSR said...
if aything you should bump the timing. higher octane rating allows for less chance of pre=ignition/detonation...why would you pull timing? I bet your manifold was glowing red when you were done, lol

Denso Iridiums were on backorder. Swapped the supercharger pulley. Higher boost + stock plugs = Bad news. Dumped in a 3/4 tank of 100 octane to reduce the possibility of detonation. Took car in for new tune. Chip tuned and timed for 91 octane. 100 octane with 91 octane timing = Slow A/F burn rate, rich condition, loss of HP/TQ. 100 octane runs $4.699 per, here in SoCal. No way I am tuning for long-term 100!

11.6-11.8 sounds kinda rich, you sure thats right? then again i work mostly on hondas...

It is rich. And it is the ratio tuners shoot for. You would generally think 12:4-12:6, but not so with the '03. The supercharger has very little lag and boost is developed almost instantaneously @ WOT. There is an immediate need for fuel. And lots of it. Tuners across the nation have indicated that the '03 loses HP/TQ above 12.2-12.4. This is based upon empirical observation and hundreds upon hundreds of chassis dyno and road tunes. Those who reside in warmer year-round climates, such as SoCal can generally get away with 12.0. The reason most tuners try to stay within 11.6-11.8 is to provide their clients with a margin of safety. Always safer to stay a bit rich.

yeah them 03's are no joke. Theyre pushing 370-380hp/tq here in tx straight out of the lot (well after break-in period) and i've heard of a few 400hp/tq bone stock in other states

The power numbers are there. The problem is traction, particularly IRS wheelhop. Not even drag radials can defeat wheelhop, the result of the rear IRS crossbrace shifting under applied load. '03s are breaking half-shafts left and right these days. The easiest way to beat an '03? Take them from a dig, or stop. Keep on racing from a stop until the '03 wheelhops its way to a broken shaft. An easy kill =>)

[GSR]

ok i misunderstood you

So timing was being pulled for 100, leading to a slow air/fuel burn rate and a slightly rich condition

This statement made me believe you pulled additional timing as a result of the higher octane. what you meant was, at 100 octane you could have had much more advanced timing but your chip already had the maps for 91 octane which requires conservative timing...correct?

traction is the worst on a high hp, light, front wheel drive car...so i know what you mean Stiff suspension and good driving skills (feathering gas/clutch) help but launching is always a biatch.

[ox03]

Originally posted by GSR
...at 100 octane you could have had much more advanced timing but your chip already had the maps for 91 octane which requires conservative timing...correct?

Correct!

traction is the worst on a high hp, light, front wheel drive car...so i know what you mean Stiff suspension and good driving skills (feathering gas/clutch) help but launching is always a biatch.

Or a soft suspension to induce and absorb launch squat. BTW, ran a Civic hatchback last night, model year unknown, with a '00 GSR motor and tranny swap. No turbo. He had me by half-a-car at the top of 1st. I put him at my rear quarter panel by the end of 2nd. That same Civic topped a stock MR-2 Turbo and pulled a stock Lightning the same night. I can imagine a close race w/ a properly-tuned B18C1/T04 setup...

[GSR]

yeah it's different for rwd.
by the laws of physics, when accelerating, a car's weight transfers to the rear. this is why the front rises.
us fwd guys need the most weight in the front we can get. weight=traction (btw to anyone reading, this applies to drag racing only) so the siffer springs would help keep the car level on the launch. you, on the other hand, have the advantage of traction by physics

i've never raced a turbo mr2 but i hope that lightning was an older model