92 lesbre flooding out?

[russ3654]

The car has 80k miles. I changed out the crank & cam sensor, ICM, fuel pressure regulator, temperature sense. Check fuel pressure on rail constant 40psi. The car starts after sitting overnight runs 3-4 minutes and stalls. And won't start again. Pulled a plug and its wet. This morning changed the temp sense and it won't start at all. Plulled a plug again and its wet. Have a good white spark, it won't fire with starting fluid either, probable because its flooded out. I'm looking for any ideas
Thanks

[spinne1]

Do you have spark on all cylinders when it won't start? If not, find out why. How did you check for spark (via propping a spark plug near a ground?--that is the way I would do it) Maybe your computer is broken. But if you have spark and fuel, you should have a running engine.

See if the wet you are finding is gasoline. If so, don't worry about it, because normally that gas would ignite and burn if you had spark. If not, see if it is anti-freeze. If it is anti-freeze you need to do an engine compression test to see if you can pinpoint any trouble and if you have a head gasket failure. If it is not a head gasket failure it would be some sort of intake gasket most likely. (lower or upper intake manifold gasket.)

Good luck. You have definitely replaced several key suspects.

[russ3654]

I know put in a new temp sending unit. The car wouldn't start. I obtained 2 codes out of the computer 21 and 22 throttle position low and high voltage faults. I unplugged the throttle postion sensor and the car started right up, the idle reved up and down, figured because the sensor was unplugged. Installed a new one this morning and the car won't start, unplugged the sensor the car still won't start. Could the ECM be scrambled causing all these different symptoms. I checked my spark on one cylinder using a spare plug, diffently gas on the plugs.Any help is greatly appreciated

[spinne1]

Originally Posted by russ3654

ICould the ECM be scrambled causing all these different symptoms.

Yes, it could be your computer.

But, as for the code 21, if it was your sensor and you replaced it, the code should not reset (unplug your PCM fuse for 30 seconds to reset the computer and erase the codes.) And your car should run if that was the reason for it not running. The problems to cause a 21 could be:

Faulty connection
Faulty TPS
Open sensor ground circuit 452 (black wire "c" from TPS to computer with a connection to "a" of coolant temperature sensor)
Faulty PCM

Specifically it will set the code if:
Engine running and air flow less than 15 gm/sec
Code 34 not present
TPS signal voltage is greater than .80 volts
all three conditions met for 5 seconds OR
TPS voltage greater than 4.8 volts at any time.

Code 22 is also TPS but for a signal voltage less than .2 volts for 4 seconds.

I would check your wiring between the TPS and the computer on all three lines. The "C" (black) goes to BA8 on the PCM. The "B" (dark blue) goes to BB10. The "A" (gray) goes to BB3 on the PCM. Check for continuity first for each. Then check for short to ground for "A" and "B" (if continuity to ground there is a problem.) Check continuity to ground for "C."

[russ3654]

I ohmed-out the wires from the TPS to the ECM they check out OK. I removed power to the ECM. When I turn the key on I can hear a relay on the fire wall coming on and off and the idle air control valve is turning. I jumped the pins to check diagnostic mode and the cooling fans come on (is this normal). I got codes 22, 43, 58. Code 43 is for carburator models I have fuel injection, and I don't even see code 58. I hit the key and it started right-up. Ran it for 15 minutes seems ok. I don't want to drive it with the oil thats in it, in case gas got into it. I'll change the oil tommorow and try driving it. It sounds like the ECM goin on the blink. Thanks for everyones help. Suggestions are greatly appreciated

[russ3654]

Tried to start the car, now it just turns over, won't fire. Jumped the terminals for diagonistic mode to get engine codes. When the check engine light flashes sometimes the red led over temp flashes with it, the cruise light comes on, the cooling fans cycle, is this normal or is the ECM scrambled? I'm getting code 22 monitored the signal coming into the ECM its steady at 0.427 vdc. I'm also getting code 58?

[spinne1]

Originally Posted by russ3654

Tried to start the car, now it just turns over, won't fire. Jumped the terminals for diagonistic mode to get engine codes. When the check engine light flashes sometimes the red led over temp flashes with it, the cruise light comes on, the cooling fans cycle, is this normal or is the ECM scrambled?

I don't remember mine doing those things. It sounds like either your computer is shot or you have a grounding problem. Still, I wouldn't replace anything unless you could get it cheap (I happened to have a spare computer for a 92 sitting around that I got from a pick and pull pretty cheap. If you are interested I'll sell it for my cost plus postage, which I think would be around $40 total. I'm not in any rush to sell it as it is a spare for my two 92 LeSabres in case mine ever go, but I could always get another later at my pick and pull. I simply offer it as a favor if you wanted it.)

Vrmlbasic also has an extra computer he may not need. I sold it to him. It also was from the same pick and pull.

[HotZ28]

Originally Posted by rus3654

I'm getting code 22 monitored the signal coming into the ECM its steady at 0.427 vdc.

How did you monitor the TPS signal, with a scanner or DVM? You need to use a scanner to see the ECM interpolation of this input! As previously mentioned, you could have a grounding problem, especially with the ECM. Check the terminals on the right front fender and the one under the ICM bracket. Also, remove, check for loose connections, clean and lubricate the ICM connector. If all this all checks good, you may want to consider the ECM that spinne1 has so graciously offered. BTW, the fans should run and relays click when you jump the diagnostic terminals A&B, but other lights should not flash in harmony with the CEL!

Code 58 is the security fuel enable circuit, an erroneous (generic) code you should not be concerned with unless the security light is flashing when attempting to start.

Code 21 & 22 has been previously well discussed.

Code 43 could indicate Electronic Spark Control (ESC) Circuit

[russ3654]

I first ohmed out the wires from the TPS to the ECM, they checked out OK. I montored the blue input signal wire from the TPS with a oscillascope, it was a clean DC waveform when I pushed the accelarator down I watched the signaL increase to 4.65vdc. I went through and cleaned all ground wires ( I could find) and checked resistance back to the neg terminal of the battery, to make sure they were ok. I noticed with just they key on (not started) the realy on the firewall far left passenger side will drop in and out. Does anyone know the function of this relay, is the ecm controlling it? should it be dropping in an out with the key on? everyones help has been great, thanks
P.S. I tried starting it after work won't fire. Used a spare spark plug and have spark on all cylinders, pulled a plug and its wet with gas? Earlier it started right up and ran great for 5 minutes and died, go figure

[HotZ28]

Originally Posted by russ3654

I went through and cleaned all ground wires ( I could find) and checked resistance back to the neg terminal of the battery, to make sure they were ok.

I don’t know much else you can check on grounds! IIRC, we have had several instances similar to this, where the wires were damaged in the harness routed under the alternator. It might be worthwhile checking that particular harness while you are going through the process of elimination.

Originally Posted by russ3654

I first ohmed out the wires from the TPS to the ECM, they checked out OK. I montored the blue input signal wire from the TPS with a oscillascope, it was a clean DC waveform when I pushed the accelarator down I watched the signaL increase to 4.65vdc

Apparently, you have verified that the TPS is doing it’s thing, however, you still need a scanner to “look inside” to what the ECM interpolation of the TPS input is. This is the real “missing link” to the diagnoses here. Of course, if you don’t have a scanner, the offer from spinne1 for an ECM becomes more appealing!

Originally Posted by russ3654

I noticed with just they key on (not started) the realy on the firewall far left passenger side will drop in and out. Does anyone know the function of this relay, is the ecm controlling it? should it be dropping in an out with the key on? everyones help has been great, thanks

The relay on the far left (passenger side) is for the A/C compressor. I do not see anything in the schematics that would indicate this relay has any input from the ECM. The A/C control would command this relay off/on on demand with input from it’s network of sensors. Turn the A/C control to OFF and turn the ignition switch on to see if the relay still clicks.

Originally Posted by russ3654

P.S. I tried starting it after work won't fire. Used a spare spark plug and have spark on all cylinders, pulled a plug and its wet with gas? Earlier it started right up and ran great for 5 minutes and died, go figure.

Normally, when referring to an engine that “won’t fire” this means no spark. It might be easier for us dummies to understand, if you said; “I tried to start the engine and it will not start, but I have fire on all of the cylinders”.

BTW, the ICM you replaced, was it a rebuilt unit? If so, you may want to have it tested, or exchanged. The “ESC” circuit (Code 43) is an integral part of the ICM and effects ignition timing.

[russ3654]

I had time to get back to my headache, I had $50 coming in auto zone rewards so I bought a new ECM for $38 with discount. (Thanks spinne1 for offering that one) I changed the oil right away because there was gas in it from flooding out. I installed the new ECM it started right-up running great, cooling fans came on around 170degress the check engine light came on and then she just stopped. I can turn it over and over and it won't start again, used a paper clip to get codes, the ecm won't go into diagnostic mode, can't get the check engine to come on in diagnostic mode. I checked all wiring and cleaned all grounds, before I installed the new ecm. I pulled a plug and its wet with gas, turned it over I have spark on the plug. I was told a plugged convertor can cause this problem, so I plulled the o2 sensor to relive any back pressure and it still won't start. I heard that a bad ICM can damage the ECM. what next? should I buy a new ICM (the one I put in is from a junk yard) and exchange the ECM for a new one, change them both out? I'm running out of ideas. I just got code 43 can the knock sensor cause this problem

[HotZ28]

I have never known anyone that had much luck with AZ rebuilt (Mexico) ECM's! Did you use the prom from the old ECM? Is your spark a hot (blue) color, or is it yellowish?

[russ3654]

The spark is a white color not blue, autozone can't test the type of ICM I have, from what I'm hearing about auto zone, maybe I should get my parts at NAPA, I could exchange the ecm, should I also try the icm and coil pack. I got the code 43 could the knock sensor be messing-up the timing that bad. I used the old prom.

[HotZ28]

Originally Posted by russ3654

The spark is a white color not blue, autozone can't test the type of ICM I have, from what I'm hearing about auto zone, maybe I should get my parts at NAPA, I could exchange the ecm, should I also try the icm and coil pack. I got the code 43 could the knock sensor be messing-up the timing that bad. I used the old prom.

For whatever reason, your spark is too weak to start the engine. It should have a crisp blue spark! What type of ICM do you have, the Magnovox with integrated coils, or the Delco with top mounted coils? The Knock sensor has nothing to do with initial engine timing, or starting! NAPA parts are usually better quality than AZ parts, however, NAPA is now selling parts that are made in China & Mexico. Be careful of what you buy in the aftermarket!

[russ3654]

I have the delco coil pack. I pulled the ecm fuse for the night. Put it back in the morning. The car started right-up. As soon as it got to 180 degrees it stalled out. It seems to stall out at a 180 degrees. When looking at the relays on the fire wall (wanted to check the cooling fan relay) I seen a mouse chewed-up some of the wires in the back of the relays. I figured that was it. I resoldered and wrapped the damaged wires. The car started right-up and ran till it hit 180 degrees and just stalled, the cooling fans are coming on and off. She won't start, check engine light on, used a spark plug getting blue spark once in awhile getting a white one. Plugs are wet, the ecm won't go into diagnostic mode, a relay keeps clicking and my idle air control valve keeps operating with just the key on, is this normal? I'm thinking the chewed wires shorted could have taken out the new ecm, I powered the fans off the battery they run fine, any more ideas. I never seen nothing like this. I replaced the crank & cam sensors, icm, ecm, temp sense, thottle position sensor, fuel pressure regulator, I'm running out of components