ARGGGG!!!! ANOTHER PROBLEM! This time it won't start

[ammcf1]

1994, 3-cyl, 114,000 miles, automatic

Work done recently (past 6 months):

• Tires & balance
• Distributor, Rotor, plugs, wires
• Water pump
• Timing belt
• Thermostat replaced
• Timing set professionally

I started it up this morning once and drove 35 miles, from 7800 ft. to 10,400 ft., no problem.

I started it up a few hours later and drove it 3 mintues to the gas station, no problem.

I tried to start it up after adding 2 quarts of oil and gasoline in the tank...
and it won't start! It does crank over, just won't catch...

What in the WORLD could go out so suddenly like that? Taking off the top of the air filter, it appears to be getting fuel when it cranks over... but just won't start. Could it be not getting spark? If so, where should I start to investigate that?

I'm about to pull out my hair over this car! I love it and can't live without it, but it continues to have issues like this!

ARRRRGGGGGG!

[GM Line Rat]

If the car turns over (Cranks), and it's getting fuel in the throttle body?......Then it's most likely an Ignition problem. Since you stated that you have put on a new distributor cap, rotor and wires.......The 1st thing I would look at having checked out is the Ignition Coil. Autozone can do a load test on it and tell you if it's failing or not? One way to tell if the car is getting fuel the next time the car dies is to:
1. Remove the Air Cleaner cover from the throttle Body

2. Get a small (Clean) glass jar and a regular (Clean) drinking straw.

3. Fill the glass jar half full of fresh Gasoline, Then dip the drinking straw into the fuel, put your finger over the end of the straw to hold the fuel in the straw.....Then transfer the fuel directly into the Throttle Body by opening the throttle plate by hand (Where the throttle cable attaches), putting the straw over the opening and lifting your finger off the end of the straw.

4. Now try and start the car and see if it temp starts or fires? It may take a couple of straw fulls a fuel to do the trick.

5. If the car temp fires up, The problem is not an Ignition problem, It's a fuel delivery problem. If it still doesn't fire at all..........The Issue is most likely an Ignition system part failure.

[metro_roy]

2 quarts of oil? Does it always use this much oil? Have you checked the engine compression recently?

[ammcf1]

2 quarts is not normal - I guess I've been a bit tardy in checking it. How do I go about doing a compression check?

[RossT]

This link shows how to do a compression test. You can buy the tester at walmart for about $25. Make sure you do the wet and dry tests. Report back with your results.

http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?t=27748

[metro_roy]

Since you'll be pulling the spark plugs to do the compression test, note what they look like and advise. Are they all black and fouled with oil?

[ammcf1]

I am planning on the compression test, the nearest Wal-Mart is 35 minutes away - HOWEVER...

After letting the car sit for 3 days (I was out of town), I came home and got it started. It was very hard to do, but finally worked and has been starting and running well since. So apparently both spark and fuel are good. However, Here's a thought...

This has occurred before but when it did I was able to get it restarted after about 3 minutes, nothing like this last time. But BOTH times were in the higher elevation (10,400 ft.). When I have it at home (7,800 ft.) it is no problem getting it started.

Could the compression (if it's bad) be causing problems at the higher altitude?

[metro_roy]

Less oxygen means less power. I've read were there is a 3% reduction in power for every 1000 ft above sea level. At 10,000 ft your Geo would only have the power of a 2 cylinder at sea level. But it doesn't take any real power to idle so something is wrong with the car. It just gets worse at high altitudes. Do you have a good clean air filter? When they set the timing, do you know what they set it to? The Geo runs much better advanced to 12 degrees, and they may have set it to 5. Another thought I have is if your compression is okay, you may have an oxygen sensor problem that is causing too lean a fuel ratio.

[ammcf1]

I'm going to have to take it in to have it checked out - too many variables for me to troubleshoot on my own and I don't have time to putz arond with it. I will take all our options to my car-guy and see what he comes up with.

[ammcf1]

O.K. here's the AGGREVATING problem...

The mechanic says unless he can get the problem to reoccur he doesn't really have much to go on, in spite of my description of the problems. So, I'm left with a car that starts most of the time, but seems to not start at the MOST inconvenient times...

So... do any of YOU geo-geniuses have any places for me to begin???!!!
Here's what I have so far...

• Seems to be getting fuel O.K.
• Altitude may effect it, but possibly not as the last time it occurred was at the lower altitude
• Spark SEEMS O.K. but what if it was the ignition coil going out? Could it be sporadic like this at first?
• Someone mentioned a possible problem with an oxygen sensor... does that sound realistic?

Please give me possible scenarios and the best place to start - cheapest to more expensive...

I have GOT to have this car in reliable shape as I use it every day and can't afford to be stranded away from my home or office by a car that won't start dependably.

Thanks

[GM Line Rat]

Originally Posted by ammcf1

O.K. here's the AGGREVATING problem...

The mechanic says unless he can get the problem to reoccur he doesn't really have much to go on, in spite of my description of the problems. So, I'm left with a car that starts most of the time, but seems to not start at the MOST inconvenient times...

So... do any of YOU geo-geniuses have any places for me to begin???!!!
Here's what I have so far...

• Seems to be getting fuel O.K.
• Altitude may effect it, but possibly not as the last time it occurred was at the lower altitude
• Spark SEEMS O.K. but what if it was the ignition coil going out? Could it be sporadic like this at first?
• Someone mentioned a possible problem with an oxygen sensor... does that sound realistic?

Please give me possible scenarios and the best place to start - cheapest to more expensive...

A bad O2 Sensor would set off the CEL (Check Engine Light) in the Dash, and store a Code 13 in the ECM. Is the CEL Light on in the dash?

Altitude???........I doubt it!

This is either a intermittent fuel delivery or Ignition part failure as I stated above in my prior post.

Originally Posted by ammcf1

Please give me possible scenarios and the best place to start - cheapest to more expensive...

Thanks

That's NOT how it works my Man (cheapest to more expensive).......Pull the Ignition coil off the car, take down to a local Autozone Etc and have it load tested under the specs for a Geo Metro. Make sure they test it a few times under a load and compare the different load tests.......It's free to test it!

[ammcf1]

Sounds great... can you point out to me what part is the ignition coil?

Thanks

[91Caprice9c1]

Well let us not be so quick to rely on OBDI to set a code for a sensor that is operating out of range. One of the many improvements in OBDII over OBDI is that OBDII detects sensors out or range vs. OBDI which will only illuminate the CEL if a sensor/circuit stops functioning altogether. With that said, I doubt its the O2 sensor.

The ignition coil is connected to the center of the distributor cap with with a 'high tension' cable. Be sure all your ignition wires are connected securely particularly the one between the coil and the dist. cap. The coil is definitely a valid suspect.

You can check for spark if you have a timing light by simply hooking it up to the car and looking for the light to pulse as the engine cranks.

If you have the resources I'd be highly inclined to check the camshaft position sensor/igniter as well which is located inside the distributor. Two wires inside one insulating sheath come out of the dist. and plug into a white connector nearby. Disconnect this connector and probe the wires with a digital volt/ohm meter. IIRC the resistence should be ~180 ohms. I'll post back with the actual spec. if noone else does in the mean time.

I very much encourage a fuel pressure evaluation as fuel pumps can act funny as they advance in age. A compression check can't hurt as higher altitudes result in lower compression figures which also brings to mind the MAP sensor.

The MAP sensor is located next to the windshield wiper motor on the firewall and has an electrical connector going to it as well as a vacuum line from the intake manifold. Unplug it next time the car fails to start and see if it doesn't remedy the problem.

On the back side of the intake manifold below the air cleaner is a bundle of sensor grounds attached to the intake manifold via a 10mm hex bolt. Loosen it up enough to wiggle it back and forth a few times and re-tighten it, also check the ground cable between the transaxle and the battery - terminal for cleanliness and tightness.

Meanwhile try to isolate any circumstances under which the no-start condition is repeatable ie: right after fill-up, high altitudes, durations of running/not running, hot engine/cold engine, etc.

-MechanicMatt