New Member, looking to turbo my 5S-FE...

[[email protected]]

Hello everyone~

I own a 1991 MR2 N/a. It has a decent amount of mods, including exhaust, intake, wiring, body kit, lighting, seats, etc.

Here are some pics of my baby, if anyone's interested...
(note, the REAL reason for this post is AFTER the pics)






So, I am thinking the next step I would like to take with my mr2 is to give a serious boost in power! Obviously, the main options to consider are turbocharging, supercharging, and engine-swapping.

I'd prefer not to swap away from my 5S-FE, if for no other reason, to be in (what seems to be) the minority for mr2 owners.

I've looked just about everywhere online for ways to do it *right* and can't seems to find what I'm looking for: a reliable turbo kit for the 5F-SE.

Lots of forums and other places hint at such a kit's existence... possibly from Burien or TRD, and several mentions of www.poweredbytoyota.com/ssfeturbo.html (which doesn't exist like it used to, I assume)...

...so, I'm looking for some help; some input; someone who's done something similar to what I'd like to do, or someone who has an even better idea.


Please, let me know what you think!

[ac427cpe]

there really isn't a good option to power upgrading the 5s, if you want more power you really need to go 3sgte or v6 swap.

With the amount of bodywork you've done I'd say go for the v6 make it even more unique!

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by ac427cpe

there really isn't a good option to power upgrading the 5s, if you want more power you really need to go 3sgte or v6 swap.

With the amount of bodywork you've done I'd say go for the v6 make it even more unique!

I know that the 3sgte is a good option... but, as stated before, would prefer not to do a swap.

I hadn't thought about trying to throw a v6 in... I'm pretty sure that would be way out of my league (in fact, I'm pretty sure any engine swap is beyond my level of expertise). You're right, it would make it even more unique, and could be something to consider sometime down the road...



...but, I am still looking for some input into power options for the 5S-FE, so if anyone else has anything to help me out, it'd be great to hear from you too...

[Brian R.]

See if this link is useful:

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...5&postcount=50

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by Brian R.

See if this link is useful:

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...5&postcount=50

Wow... yeah, that link answered a lot of my questions, and is a pretty comprehensive outline for turbocharging the 2.2L 5S-FE, as its title indicates.

Thanks!!

I can alway use more information, other sources, maybe a walkthrough or something from someone who's actually done work on the 5S-FE... stuff like that...








Actually, here's the linked text... one less step for those who may follow...


TURBOCHARGING A 2.2-L 5S-FE


Modifying your 5S-FE


There are a lot of nay-sayers out there that say the 5S-FE motor is a weak non-performance economy motor and can't handle the boost. I don't agree with this assumption and feel that many setups are not so much limited by the motor itself but by their owner's understanding of how it works. The 5S-FE like any other motor has it weaknesses and strengths but overall is a very sturdy platform for modification. When planning modifications to a motor, I believe it should be thought of as a series of obstacles to be overcome. As you remove one big obstacle you find yourself facing another one but in general the overall system will become more efficient. In addition, upgrading one component can overstress another that was within its operating limits before the upgrade. To safely build a performance motor you need to understand what the limits of your motor are so you can know how far to push the envelope and what components need to work together to get the desired result. Here are some of the limits of the 5S-FE platform as I see them.

Basic Strengths of the 5sfe:
- Solid block - High powered 500+rwhp MR2s often use these blocks.
- Stroked crank - The 5S-FE is a stroker motor from the factory. Also used in 500+rwhp MR2s.
- Displacement - 2.164 liters which is great for spooling a turbo.
- Long intake runners - Although bad for high revs this gives more velocity for torque down low.
- 9.5:1 compression - Good for NA power and low boost power but limits the maximum boost.
- Fuel rail - The fuel rail on the 5S-FE is a top feed rail which is capable of supporting 850cc injectors or maybe larger

Limitations:
- 6300rpm redline - Valve springs and connecting rod bolts are not strong enough to be reliable past this.
- Short duration cams - ~220? and 8mm lift. The 3S-GTE has 236 advertised duration and 8.5mm lift.
- Small valves - 32.5mm intake and 28mm exhaust. The 3S-GTE has 33.5mm and 29mm exhaust.
- Linked intake and exhaust cams - There is a drive gear that keeps them synced so an adjustable cam gear can only be put on the intake cam and it also affects the exhaust.
- Fuel pump - Only good to ~235rwhp at stock pressure.
- 5S-FE Computer - Runs rich and is made for the stock NA injectors.
- Injectors - Made for max 150rwhp maybe less. 91-92 injectors are 205cc (yellow) and 93+ are 225cc (Dark green).
- Intake manifold - I don't know the limits of the 5S-FE intake manifold but most people shooting for high power replace it with a custom one. I suspect it would become a bottleneck in the 250-300rwhp range but that is just a guess.
- Throttlebody - I also don't know the limits of the stock throttlebody but it is only 2" in diameter which is rather small. I suspect the 5S-FE throttlebody will become a major bottleneck at 200-250rwhp depending on the boost level. Again this is just a guess.

What can you expect from your turbo 5S-FE?


A stock 5S-FE in good condition will easily handle boost of up to 9-10psi with as much as 180rwhp. An MR2 with a 5S-FTE is an absolute blast to drive and is a little faster then a stock turbo MR2. There is a misconception that the S54 transmission in the NA MR2 has shorter gears then an E153 turbo transmission. It is partially true but only the 4th and 5th gears are shorter. 1st through 3rd are almost identical when factoring in final drive gears. So why is a 5S-FTE MR2 faster? Because the turbo spools faster, the compression is higher and it's a bigger engine.

The simplest, bare minimum setup for a 5S-FTE includes the following:

- Factory 3s-gte Turbo CT26 with wastegate actuator
- Factory 3s-gte Elbow and Primary Catalytic converter
- Factory 3s-gte Exhaust Manifold
- Factory 3s-gte Intercooler w/ fan
- Factory 3s-gte Oil Pan
- Factory 3s-gte Oil/Water Coolant Lines to and from Turbo w/oil drain hose and clamps
- Factory 3s-gte turbo to intercooler Pipe
- Custom intercooler to throttlebody pipe (mine is 2.5" diameter)
- Factory 3s-gte Blow Off Valve with the VTV valve
- 4 MkIII Supra NA 315cc Injectors (light green top) part # 23250-70080
- 4 NGK BKR6E or BKR7E Spark Plugs (BKR7E is the colder plug for higher boost)
- Factory 3s-gte 2bar MAP Sensor part # 89420-17030
- 30 amp relay for intercooler fan
- Boost Gauge
- MSD-BTM # 5462
- MSD Tach Adapter #8910eis
- Oil and water send/return fittings (Other ways possible using JIC and AN fittings)
Oil
1/8 BSPT to 1/8 NPT male to male
1/8 NPT female T
1/8 NPT to 3/8 barbed hose
1/8 NPT to female 1/8 BSPT
Water
Coolant Gooseneck from a 91 NA MR2
M16x1.5 to 3/8 NPT (I had to buy a M16x1.5 to 1/8, drill and tap it to 3/8)
3/8 male BSPT to 3/8 female NPT
2 - 3/8 NPT to 3/8 hose barb 90 degree bends
- 6 3/8" hose clamps
- Misc nuts and bolts for the turbo and manifold if you are missing any
- gaskets - Turbo to downpipe and exhaust manifold
- Misc Hoses and clamps
Hoses
12"long x 2"diam hose (IC pipe to IC)
2"diam coupler (Turbo to IC pipe)
2-2.5"diam transition coupler (IC to TB pipe)
2.5"diam coupler (TB pipe to TB)
Clamps
2 2.25" clamps
3 2.5" clamps
3 2.75" clamps
- 4 feet 3/8" oil/coolant hose
- 10 feet 5/32" vacuum hose
- 18 gauge wire and crimp connectors
- 2 1/8" exhaust pipe coupler and two pipe clamps to join the down pipe to the NA exhaust
- Zip ties and misc hose clamps to secure vacuum lines under boost.

Upgrades from the basic 5S-FTE could include:
- KO or other Downpipe
- Turbo exhaust system
- Boost Controller
- EGT Gauge
- Air/Fuel Ratio Gauge (Modify for WOT reading from www.gadgetseller.com)
- Oil Pressure Gauge
- Oil Temp Gauge
- Pillar pod and/or steering column pod
- SPAL intercooler pull fan
- Silicon hoses for turbo/IC pipes
- T-Bolt clamps instead of screw type clamps
- SAFC with adjustable FPR for fuel tuning (Requires spending time on a dyno)
- J&S Safeguard instead of MSD-BTM
- SMT6 instead of MSD-BTM/SAFC (Requires spending time on a dyno)
- CT-20b or larger turbo. (Be very careful here. 9psi on a CT-26 is not the same as 9psi on a TD06. You'll need more fuel per pound of boost with a bigger turbo but you will get more power at lower boost.)

Many people ask if they can substitute different injectors or MAP sensors. The answer is yes but you will require some advanced way to tune your WOT fuel maps and it will get a whole lot more expensive. Call it the magic triangle of the 5S-FTE: 5S-FE Computer, 315cc injectors and 2 bar stock turbo MAP sensor. It's a balanced equation and anything else throws it off. The combination of CT-26, turbo MAP sensor, stock fuel pump, 315cc injectors and 5S-FE computer is only good up to about 10psi of boost. At this point the injectors are probably over 90% duty cycle because the ECU runs so rich. With some kind of fuel tuning you could possibly go higher but be careful, use a wideband and take slow steps up. If you go too lean you risk detonation and damaging your engine. Something else that is necessary to keep your motor safe is a device to retard timing according to boost level. You need this because you are tricking the stock ECU into thinking that less air is going into the engine and it advances timing past what is safe at boost. I chose to use the MSD-BTM and Tach Adapter because it was the most economical solution. A J&S Safeguard or SMT6 or SMT7 will also work but are more expensive with more features. Most people have it set to retard 1/5 to 1/2 degree per pound of boost. If you have a 93+ 5S-FE it will also have a knock sensor which is an added level of safety.

If 10psi and 180rwhp aren't enough for you then there is still hope. Toyota only planned for the 5S-FE to have 135hp at the crank but it is still the sister engine of the 3S-GTE and in some ways, as I mentioned above, the stronger of the two. All of the weaknesses of the 5S-FE can be overcome but not all of the solutions are cheap.

Here are some of the limits and what you can do to get past them:


- Cams - Webcams and others make cams that will increase duration and lift. Webcam grinds of 294, 577 and 101 should increase performance and still be streetable. Welded cams like Webcams are better then cams that are only ground because the base circle is kept the same so stock shims can be used. You will need an EMS to idle really aggressive cams like 256 degree and above. Remember that cams shift your torque curve to the right so buy cams to suite where you want your torque peak. An bad example would be buying 306 degree cams. They would be almost useless in a motor that has a 6300rpm redline. Also high lift or ground cams may require underbucket shims or shimless buckets to keep the shims from popping out. Just FYI the difference between 91-92 cams and 93+ cams is the diameter of the base circle and lobe size (smaller base circle on the 91-92 with narrower lobes). Otherwise they would be interchangable.
- Valves - 1mm or 2mm oversized valves will do wonders for volumeteric efficiency. 2mm oversized valves will require larger seats, porting and deshrouding of the combustion chamber. Use valves from a 3S-GTE for 91-92 5S-FE and valves from a 2JZ-GTE for the 93+ 5S-FE for 1mm oversized. The +1mm version of these valves will be +2mm in a 5S-FE.
- Ports - Port matching and cleaning up the intake and exhaust ports will improve VE and may be required to see gains from oversized valves. When porting you will always get the best results from a shop that can flow test the head. Many people recommend Chris Katthage of Engine Logics because he deals almost exclusively in MR2 performance motors and will document gains in flow when doing head work.
- Fuel Pump - Good to 235rwhp with stock pressure. Replace with a Walbro 255lph or supra pump if you want more.
- 5S-FE Computer - Runs rich and fires the injectors in batches. Also it can't idle a set of aggressive cams. Replace with a standalone or add an advanced piggyback. An SMT6 or SMT7 will allow you to get past your fuel and timing issues but still has limits. Personally I would go with stand alone ECU because it will remove all the limitations of the 5S-FE ECU.
- Injectors - With a standalone or advanced piggyback and a big fuel pump you can run much larger injectors. They may have to be custom though because top feed injectors are not as common as the side feed injectors found on the 3S-GTE.
- 6300rpm redline - To safely go above this you need upgraded valve springs (3S-GTE springs for 91/92 or 2JZ-GTE springs for 93+), forged or 3S-GTE rods because they will have bigger bolts (3S-GTE and 5S-FE rods are almost identical except for the rod bolts) and a stand alone computer to raise the rev limiter. 3S-GTE rods can be made to fit by grinding the crank journals down but they are also a few thousandths shorter then the 5S-FE rods so that can slightly lower compression.
- Compression - Custom Forged pistons can be installed for just about any compression ratio. Remember that overboring and oversized valves can change your compression ratio. For high boost you may want to shoot for 9.0:1 or less. Aggressive cams can also let you run higher compression and higher boost because with teh right tuning they reduce the propensity for detonation.
- Cam Gears - An adjustable intake cam gear can be made from a 2JZ-GTE adjustable cam gear with the center machined to fit. As for the exhaust, it will move with the intake in the same direction. This is probably the hardest limit to get past on a 5S-FE but it may be possible with some custom machine work to one of the internal cam gears to make it adjustable (Future project?).
- Intake Manifold - Just like any stock manifold there is only so much air that can flow through it and choosing the correct runner length and plenum volume in a custom manifold can add some extra velocity at different rpms and boost pressures. Most of the custom manifolds I have seen for the 5S-FE are side feed to keep air flow as even as possible between the cylinders.
- Throttlebody - You can use a Q45 or Mustang throttlebody to get a bigger bore and get more air flow. This requires a custom intake manifold and possibly some custom work for the throttle position sensor. With a stand alone this should be easier to get working.
- Oil Pump - Replace with a 98+ 5S-FE pump and shim the relief valve 1-1.5mm to get a higher pressure. If you do this you may have to put a restrictor on your turbo oil feed line to keep from blowing oil past your seals.

Credit where credit is due.


Much of the information on this page was mostly found on the MR2 Owner's Club Message Board at www.mr2oc.com. Specifically from the instructions on how to turbocharge a 5S-FE by Aaron Fowler who was one of the first to make it work. Other people that deserve credit for some of this information are Chris Katthage, Josh Boam, Jim Snodgrass, Ricky B, Bill Wotschak and many others.

If you would like to add anything or correct and information that is inacurate or outdated please feel free to PM me on the board or send me email. You can find me on www.mr2oc.com.

- MrTurrari

[eckoman_pdx]

[email protected], off topic...but I noticed in your pics you have a Phoenix Power Engine Lid. Since you can't use the OEM prop rod with the Phoenix Power Engine lid, have you considering something like the following?

KO Racing Gas Charged Engine Prop

Also, this is spendy, but it would look sweet on the underside of the engine lid...
KO Racing Engine Lid Fan Shroud

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by eckoman_pdx

[email protected], off topic...but I noticed in your pics you have a Phoenix Power Engine Lid. Since you can't use the OEM prop rod with the Phoenix Power Engine lid, have you considering something like the following?

KO Racing Gas Charged Engine Prop

Also, this is spendy, but it would look sweet on the underside of the engine lid...
KO Racing Engine Lid Fan Shroud

Wow, that is sweet. Pricy. But sweet.

Here's one of the linked pics:



I do use a different engine hood prop; it is connected to the hood, and rests on the back lip of the engine bay when the hood is up.

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

Wow, that is sweet. Pricy. But sweet.

Here's one of the linked pics:



I do use a different engine hood prop; it is connected to the hood, and rests on the back lip of the engine bay when the hood is up.

That's Kris's car Loki. Trust me, it really does look that nice back there in person. If you are into shows or those type of mods, this is one of those "worth the $$ combo's IMO."

I love it, I want to get that lid cover and prop rod for my 2 someday. The moment I saw it in real life on his car I was sold, hahaha.

Also, I am curious, where do you attach or lay your new hood prop to when the hood is down?

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by eckoman_pdx

That's Kris's car Loki. Trust me, it really does look that nice back there in person. If you are into shows or those type of mods, this is one of those "worth the $$ combo's IMO."

I love it, I want to get that lid cover and prop rod for my 2 someday. The moment I saw it in real life on his car I was sold, hahaha.

Also, I am curious, where do you attach or lay your new hood prop to when the hood is down?

I just might have to do it... maybe this summer?
Any idea how the wiring works??


And, if you're referring to my current hood and hood prop, the hood prop clips onto the hood when the hood is down... if you look back at the pics I previously posted (specifically, the one of the engine bay), there is a small black clip on the engine hood near the top of the picture which kinda looks like a circle.

[[email protected]]

It's looking like I may have found someone on the MR2OC forums who has a 5SFTE. Not just that, but he also lives within 100 miles of where I live, which is great if I decide to go the turbo route.

We'll see if he responds to my PM...

[eckoman_pdx]

It's not really hard to wire up at all. I don't remember exactly, but I know it's not too hard. Heck, go to the KO Racing site, and call the number, and ask for Kris (or email him). He owns KO, and it's his car and he makes the part, so he'll be able to tell you exactly how to wire it up.

You found someone with a 5sfe or with it turboed? N/A MR2's arn't hard to find.

Anyways, good luck with that...I don't like the aforementioned place you pm'd someone at, for several reasons. For starters, I don't like the fact it's a private forum. Unlike AF and the other mr2.com, you HAVE to register just to read anything at all. Even then, it's so limited. No Avatar, no siggy, only 25 pms TOTAL (that means sent AND recieved). If you want a siggy, avatar and 200 pm's, you have to pay $$ to the site owner over @ mr2oc That's crap IMO. Every forum I've ever been to, where here @ AF or another place like superhonda, old purehonda, honda-tech, mr2.com, etc...they ALL give you a hell of a lot more PM's than that, plus an avatar and siggy, and you don't have to pay...plus they aren't private, so you don't have to pay to read. Heck, I have a pm limit of like 20,000 here...and they want you to PAY for 200?? Whatever...

Good luck with your project, and please post up and share any info you find here for reference!!

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by eckoman_pdx

It's not really hard to wire up at all. I don't remember exactly, but I know it's not too hard. Heck, go to the KO Racing site, and call the number, and ask for Kris (or email him). He owns KO, and it's his car and he makes the part, so he'll be able to tell you exactly how to wire it up.

You found someone with a 5sfe or with it turboed? N/A MR2's arn't hard to find.

Anyways, good luck with that...I don't like the aforementioned place you pm'd someone at, for several reasons. For starters, I don't like the fact it's a private forum. Unlike AF and the other mr2.com, you HAVE to register just to read anything at all. Even then, it's so limited. No Avatar, no siggy, only 25 pms TOTAL (that means sent AND recieved). If you want a siggy, avatar and 200 pm's, you have to pay $$ to the site owner over @ mr2oc That's crap IMO. Every forum I've ever been to, where here @ AF or another place like superhonda, old purehonda, honda-tech, mr2.com, etc...they ALL give you a hell of a lot more PM's than that, plus an avatar and siggy, and you don't have to pay...plus they aren't private, so you don't have to pay to read. Heck, I have a pm limit of like 20,000 here...and they want you to PAY for 200?? Whatever...

Good luck with your project, and please post up and share any info you find here for reference!!

I found someone who has safely made a 5SFTE from their 5SFE. And he did get back to me... says it's running great! I asked him for a parts list, etc. and he said he'd be happy to write it up over the weekend!


And, though I'd have to agree with you about this forum having a much better set-up, the truth of the matter is more people frequent the MR2OC forums... which is good for a lot of reasons.


I will be happy to share all of the info I find on the project here!

[[email protected]]

So, that guy never got back to me about his 5S-FTE


So, here's what I'm thinkin'

I'm gonna use the money I would spend on trying to turbo my 5sfe on tuition!

Or, on modifying my '2 in other ways... maybe some carbon fiber? New seats? Add to the sound system? Who knows?


Maybe I will hear from a 5sfte success story, and if I do, I'll post what I learn here...

but until then...

[ac427cpe]

If you are on the mr2oc.com there was a vendor for a while who was selling kits. but again, if you want more power the easiest/cheapest in the long run way: 3sgte swap.

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

So, that guy never got back to me about his 5S-FTE


So, here's what I'm thinkin'

I'm gonna use the money I would spend on trying to turbo my 5sfe on tuition!

Or, on modifying my '2 in other ways... maybe some carbon fiber? New seats? Add to the sound system? Who knows?


Maybe I will hear from a 5sfte success story, and if I do, I'll post what I learn here...

but until then...

Honestly...I am a car guy who LOVES to blow money on cars...however, spending the $$ on tuition is probably the smartest option IMO (assuming you intend to finish your degree). The more you actually pay now, the less of a loan you have to pay back later.

That being said, if you are dead set on trying to turbo the 5sfte, you can try contacting Kris @ KO Racing. It most likely won't be cheap, but I'm sure he can fab something up for you. He does great fab work, and knows his MR2's cold. Tell him eckoman_pdx sent you.

KO Racing Website
(503) 496-0563 Days (9:00 AM to 5:00 PM PST)

KO Racing Contact Info

Speaking of KO Racing, you could get that engine underside lid an prop rod now.

If you were here, I could point you to a few other ppl around here who do great fab work and who could one-off a turbo kit, but that doesn't help you seeing as you are in ohio. Do you have any good custom fab shops in the area? Custom fabbing a turbo kit ins't the cheapest way, but a good fab guy can should be able to do it. Remember, all turbo kits started life as a custom fabbed kit at some point...

As for seats...I always liked Brides...though they cost an arm and a leg. I always thought the Sparco Tornio 2 was a comfy bucket as well. The Recaro SRD's were great, but they are discontinued now. It was replaced by the Recaro Speed.

What do you have for a sound system right now? I think a nice sound system is always a must in a car. 6.5" speakers fit in the front doors with no cutting, and 4" speakers fit in the rear with no cutting of the car. I've heard of bigger sizes fitting without cutting, but it really depends on the speaker. A sub in a custom enclosure behind the seat would be nice, and really fill it out.

How about some revision 6 headlights? They are a low rise quad projector headlight kit. They are not cheap, but they look nice.

This guy here is the US Importer. They look slick.
Rev 6 headlights

Do you have 94+ tails? Those are a nice tasteful mod.

As for Carbon Fiber...IDK, a carbon fiber hood (Boarder CF hood, OEM style CF Hood, etc) and a genuine 98+ MR2 spoiler. The hood might look out of place being the only CF on the car though.

Anyways, there's a few suggestions are food for thought I hope I was some help, LOL. Keep us updated