F1 discussion

[crayzayjay]

... split from this thread. Alex


I know exactly what you mean, but for me a great F1 race beats a great rally. I know there havent been as many of late, but i was just saying the sport is getting a lot of stick cos all the other teams cant get their act together. And my response to that is: their tough sh*t !!

[RallyRaider]

What is this, talking F1 on a Rally thread? The last decent F1 race I can remember was Spa 2000, not that I've actually managed to stay awake thorough a whole race lately.

Yes, F1 sucks of late, it is not because Ferrari are dominating but because of the fact they refuse to actually race. All the 'after-you'ing and trying to engineer a dead heat (bollocks!) has turned the pinnacle of motorsport into trophy collecting, stat generating bore.

Domination has been a common occurrence in F1 through the years. The difference before is that when the likes of McLaren and Williams are on top they actually allow some sort of competition between their drivers. 1986/7, 1988/9, 1996, had some great races despite the winning cars being head and shoulders above the rest of the field.

Look at Peugeot last year, sure they won about 10 of the 14 events but not once was one of the Peugeot drivers reigned in by the team. Look at Panizzi on the tarmac rounds. If Todt or Montezzemelo had been running things would he have been allowed to finish in front of Gronholm or Burns?

Sadly however it probably won't be long before things turn sour in Rallying. Malcom Wilson of Ford's M-Sport tended to impose team orders for his favourite McRae whenever possible. And if the stages on events keep getting shorter and the repeats more frequent, eventually the Monte will become a two hour event of 100 laps of the GP street circuit!

Opps sorry for the rant

[crayzayjay]

You make many good points, but i understand why Ferrari have TO's:
1) Williams and McLaren allow their drivers to race eachother, and look where it gets them, especially Williams: Schumi Jr and JPM hate eachother's guts, race eachother off the track.
2) F1 is a big $$$$$$$ business. you cant blame Ferrari for wanting to win the championship, and for that to happen they have to give the best driver priority, and thats Schumi....


sorry for getting this thread off-track

[RallyRaider]

Originally posted by crayzayjay
1) Williams and McLaren allow their drivers to race eachother, and look where it gets them, especially Williams: Schumi Jr and JPM hate eachother's guts, race eachother off the track.

Team orders are a part of racing, McLaren used them in 1998 to ensure their first championship in years. Ferrari were right to use them in similar circumstances in 2000. However after achieving the big one McLaren allowed their drives to race in 1999, 2000 and 2001, making Mika's 1999 championship sweeter (although Schmi's injury was unfortunate). Did Ferrari need team orders in the past two years? No, the trophies were in the bag in record time, but they continued to treat Rubens as a second class citizen anyway.

Teammates not getting on is a good thing! Makes for strong competition, remember the battles of Prost and Senna or Mansel and Piquet?

Originally posted by crayzayjay
2) F1 is a big $$$$$$$ business. you cant blame Ferrari for wanting to win the championship, and for that to happen they have to give the best driver priority, and thats Schumi....

Exacty $$$$$$$ is all that matters for a team like Ferrari. I prefer the racing spirit and love of competing at Minardi or of the late Ken Tyrrell thank you very much.

Originally posted by crayzayjay
sorry for getting this thread off-track

Hey, as our esteemed moderator Alex used to say - It's my thread I'll do what I want with it!

[ales]

Nothing wrong with constructive discussion. And it is indeed your thread.

Exacty $$$$$$$ is all that matters for a team like Ferrari. I prefer the racing spirit and love of competing at Minardi or of the late Ken Tyrrell thank you very much.

Beg to differ. Ferrari are probably the most passionate team out there. It's their passion that leads them to maximize every situation. And they're good at it too, aren't they?

20 years of winning nothing had a sobering effect on the team, one can't stay "playful" when everyone around is starting to become extremely professional. Like McLaren, probably the most professional and organized team out there. Barring Silverstone 2002 - @ them! But now Ferrari are in that position, and while I understand that "generic" F1 viewers don't see the need in team orders, I, as a Ferrari and MS fan don't want the drivers to race each other. There, I said it. I don't want any animosity between them, I don't want them to tak each other out in the races (happened before), I don't want them to lose the title becase the two teammated have taken too many points from each other (happened before). So even with the domination we've seen in 2002 I can honestly say that I started enjoying the season much more after France. Call me paranoid, but I was afraid something could go terribly wrong. Macs almost lost the championship in '99 because they were allowed to race (and DC took Mika out at Austria - @ them again). And had DC not let Mika through in Melbourne '98 I think MS would not have stalled in Suzuka.

It doesn't bother me that Ferraris (at least one of them) disappear into the distance - I'm very well entertaned by battles further down the field. And it's up to those teams to catch up. And they will, don't worry. Hope not too soon though (wonder if Macs's secret weapon is all it's cracked up to be)

Alex

[crayzayjay]

Originally posted by RallyRaider
Did Ferrari need team orders in the past two years? No, the trophies were in the bag in record time, but they continued to treat Rubens as a second class citizen anyway.

Teammates not getting on is a good thing! Makes for strong competition, remember the battles of Prost and Senna or Mansel and Piquet?

Well, look at what happened in '99. Michael broke his leg and Mikka won the flukiest championship ever. Had Mike not had the accident im confident he would have won that championship. So, in 2000, with the Ferrari package strong, the team maximises its chances because, as we saw in '99, you never know whats gonna happen... when you put so much time, effort and money into something you want to maximise everything, so yes, ferrari did the right thing. Hindsight (such a wonderful thing) tells us Ferrari would have probably won that championship no matter what. But there and then, they werent in a position to know that so they didnt take any chances. Makes sense to me.


About the teammates thing, Prost and Senna almost killed eachother, took eachother out, basically not a very good idea for a team to have drivers do that. If the championship looks like its going to Schumi Jr or JPM you can bet your ass one of them would take the other one out. And thats not what racing is, according to you, so

Exacty $$$$$$$ is all that matters for a team like Ferrari. I prefer the racing spirit and love of competing at Minardi or of the late Ken Tyrrell thank you very much.

Minardi are "about racing" cos thats all they can ever be, they want to be everyone's second team if you know what i mean... they'd swap it for a pile of cash though, no doubt about it. Anyway, there's only one team in F1 that actually races, and thats Ferrari. The others seem to be amateurs

[RallyRaider]

Hey Alex can you move these last few posts to the F1 forum somehow. I was happy to talk a bit of F1 here but now am a bit upset my nice Monte thread is becoming tainted with F1 fisticuffs

I'd be happy to discuss all of these points inthe F1 Forum but for the moment I will say - bollocks to the lot of you

[ales]

Done.

[RallyRaider]

Boy that was quick Alex - you are so talented!

Okay, where to we start. How about Mika's 'flukey' 1999 Championship. Here is an interesting exercise - add up the points for Hakkinen and Schumacher for just the races both competed in, you can even give Mikey boy full points for Malyasia if you want. Who comes out on top? Anything more is just speculation.

On second thought the disqualification of both Ferraris from Sepang should stand. It was only some shonky lawyer speak and a complicit court, plus Bernies interst in TV ratings, that got them off the hook there.

[crayzayjay]

With Mikka's wobbly form post-schumi-crash, and if Irvine took him all the way, MS would have had him buried. Besides the Ferrari got better as the season went on

[RallyRaider]

wooda couuda shooda.... Didn't!

Ferrari was the best car of 1999, but Mika still took the crown any way you care to look at it (red misted imaginations excluded ). Team orders possibly backfired for Ferrari in the end.

Makes me so sad that Mika Salo had to move over for Irvine at Hockenheim. Hate Todt and Brawn for that!

[crayzayjay]

red-mist eh? hehehehe.. im jus sayin.. and im not dwelling on the past, whats done is done... if mikka had driven the way he drove for the rest of that season with michael still around he wouldnt have been a double champ... a lot of people think that too, we can't all have the red-mist... unless its contagious of course

[Veyron]

Mika is the only driver of recent years with the speed and skills to hang with MS, IMO

[RallyRaider]

crayzayjay,

It is all in your imagination, how did Mika do in those races Michael missed?

Silverstone - the race Schumi injured himself - Mika was leading till his wheel fell off!

Austria - taken out by his team mate on the first lap! Drive throught the field to finish third.

Hockenheim - In the lead till a fueling malfunction followed by a tyre blow out at 200mph.

Hungary - Won it.

Spa - Second to Coulthard - no team orders.

Monza - Threw the race away with an error.

Nurburgring - Was close behind leader Frentzen till the rain came down and McLaren, as usual, got the strategy wrong. They fueled him up to the brim, but he chased down Irvine in the end for a couple of points.

So he only made the one mistake, plus a percieved poor performance at the Nurburgring, due to the commentators not having a clue what was going on i.e. he was out of sync with a fuel heavy car.

Of course the Team Schumacher fans won't see things that way. Don't know why. 'The Chin' has won enough real championships - why the need to award him imaginary ones as well?

[Veyron]

I never said he was as good as MS. Mika doesn't have the brains that MS has, that is, not as smart or racing smarts either one. Given that, Mika had speed and incredible car control, just not as consistantly as MS. Don't pigeon hole me, boy!