PCM/ EPROM - All HIGH readings

[CA Cutlass Supreme]

Greetings!

I own a 1993 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme "S" California model 4 door sedan w/the 3.1 liter V-6 (NO tach).

PROBLEM: The car sputtered then died after putting 18 dollars of gas in and driving about 5 miles. I could not restart the car again after numerous tries and it hasn't started since. The starter would turn over the motor, but that is it.

ACTION: I take the car to a AAA rated ASE mechanic (good reputation). He tells me (after doing his thing) he thinks it's the PCM/EPROM, because the readings he is getting are all askew and don't make any sense. ALL sensor readings are at the HIGH end of the scale (scale being like -30~277 degrees). For example, incoming air is 300 degrees; car is cold and not running! Mph is 255kph (i do have a dash that sometimes illuminates and sometimes does not, he did disconnect this but made no difference). From what i gather, this doesn't necessarily mean that the components are bad, but that quite possibly there is a problem in the harness somewhere between them? Just last month i had the radiator replaced with a new one. I asked if he checked the connectors, fuses, relays, solenoids, etc. and he did, but he didn't see anything visually or by test straight away.

He called me and said, Do you want me to continue?, because it would cost approx. 1k to probably trouble shoot and fix!!!!..i said no and wasn't too happy with the fact that when they bought the new electronics, they got the same thing and that now possibly both brains may be shorted out (FYI, he did have the new EPROM programmed at a dealer, so he didn't pop a blank in there)...wonderful...My mechanic friend in L.A. said that, maybe you should mention to them that "I don't pay you to guess". I didn'nt say that, but not happy that possibly my money was wasted and another NEW unit fried (possibly). He did say they set all 11 codes and they all tested good.

Originally, if the brain was the problem ,it would have cost me 600+ to fix. He cut me a break and i only had to "throw away" 300 dollars. Might as well burned it (cash) in the fireplace.

So what do you think? Harness short or loose ground somewhere? Corroded power lead to the PCM? Any K.I.S.S. things i should check?

I did ask that he write down ALL the fault codes, what diagnosis was performed, what he did and what he found. when i get that, i will post it up here.

This has been a really good car...160,000 + miles...engine runs good, up until now. Now it just cranks and no start.

If it is in the harness where on the engine should i check for this meltdown indicator? Or is it even that?

[maxwedge]

From our desks, this is impossible to diagnose, your guy on site cannot pinpoint the problem, this takes a analytical approach with good electronic skills. A replacement pcm is about 150.00 and 15 minutes to put in, plus initial diagnostics, so the 600 figure is out of whack, now 1k?, seems like he is discouraging you from going ahead with this. I could be wrong here but I do not believe that has a programmable E prom to begin with. The prom is switched into the replacement pcm. I will look into that.

[xeroinfinity]

Dont think the ecu was the problem..
Did they even check for spark & fuel ?

I dont ever recall replaing any Cutlass's Ecu's over the years either, and I've seen my fair share of them.
Electrical problems(if thats what it is) can be difficult to trace down.

Post back what the Shop says, thankx.

[JohnDD]

My wild guess is a bad connection where the major wiring harness goes through the firewall. I had that problem with my 91 Olds Cutlass Cierra when it wouldn't start. On my car it was C100.
Try wiggling the connector and then try to start the car. (You might also remove the connector and inspec the contacts for corrosion/ arcing).
Good luck.

[CA Cutlass Supreme]

Originally Posted by maxwedge

A replacement pcm is about 150.00 and 15 minutes to put in, plus initial diagnostics, so the 600 figure is out of whack, now 1k?, seems like he is discouraging you from going ahead with this. I could be wrong here but I do not believe that has a programmable E prom to begin with. The prom is switched into the replacement pcm. I will look into that.

i feel like a big lollipop.

I was thinking that cost was high too (f**k me running! <or in this case, NOT running> ). He told me that he had to pay 95.00 dollars to tow the car to the dealer for this new PCM & EPROM program (can't do it in the shop...gotta two the WHOLE car). do you actually need to tow the car? or can't you just pop this out and plug it in to a puter and do it that way? I am curious to find out what your findings are about not needing to program. if true, i will not take another car to that place. AAA rated or not.

At this point, i want to get my car as far away as possible from this guy. I made it a point to be very nice (NEVER piss off the fast food attendant....boogers and other things in your food are NOT good), but was also firm in stating, that "Can you understand why i am having problems paying for something that wasn't repaired?" I.E.: Yes, replacing the brain will fix the problem. Guess what, we fried two ECMs! you pay! We still didn't fix it.

Yes, he is discouraging me from trying to repair it (or i wouldn't spend any more time trying to figure out the problem). Why pay 1k to repair a 600 dollar car? Valid point. Hey buy my frickin' dodge bloatwagon for 8k!!! I tried to explain to this guy that i take care of my dad FULL time (amputee/diabetic and stroke on the good side with the good leg), my income is limited and i don't have a whole lot of money for a new car. So, with that DATA, he figures i can afford an 8k+ car! Gimee some of that ganja you ben smokin' Ricky.

From seeing things all way out of whack like that...it sounds like somewhere in this bundle of wires (possibly at the thick point), there is a meltdown waiting to be found. Exactly where, is a mystery. Or possibly the individual connectors may need to be pulled out 1 by 1 and looked at...i hear there are special tools for the connectors.

I would think a problem of this magnitude would be visual...i sure hope so.

So, that i wouldn't waste your guys time i spent about 2 hours late last night doing the page by page search thing and NOT EXACTLY finding a cure, except for the new power wire to the PCM thing...that sounded promising along with a battery connection or loose wiggly ground or similar.

I am the master of disaster....i get the weirdest electrical problems. i put an electronic igntion in my old yamaha RD400...then it died. The cause? ONE hairline thin piece of deburr material inside THE BRAIN of all things. took it apart, removed the piece and the puppy fired right up...

[CA Cutlass Supreme]

Originally Posted by xeroinfinity

Dont think the ecu was the problem..
Did they even check for spark & fuel ?

I dont ever recall replaing any Cutlass's Ecu's over the years either, and I've seen my fair share of them.
Electrical problems(if thats what it is) can be difficult to trace down.

Post back what the Shop says, thankx.

Initially, when i brought the car in, I said this, "I think it may be the fuel pump. Also, when you check the fuel injection for pressure, do you also run a separate line to a can and see how much volume is in for a given length of time?". He nodded knowingly and said yes. I did a little research before asking him this question, so that i showed at least i have some kind of inkling of what's going on and as NOT to take advantage of me. So initially, his focus was on injectors/pump/fuel and also ignition.

From what i have of my handwritten notes (pretty sketchy, will post other results later) here is what i wrote down from the very fast landline conversation we had:

1. checked for spark @ 2 cylinders-no spark.
2. checked TPS voltage
3. askew readings - no spark
4. voltage sensors? no sense in readings
5. every code set (11 codes)
a. all 11 tested good
6. 5 volt reference signal...sounds like an injector voltage...not sure if good or bad
7. sensor range is around -30 to 277 degrees fahrenheit
ALL sensors @ the high end of scale
8. Mentioned that he also made an extra effort to contact a GM dealer (olds is no longer existing) to go over the 1-20 manual steps covered to diagnose this problem.

Their reply after not finding the problem....basically, knowing what they know now, they wouldn't work on the car period. The black plague baby!!!


I know it's sketchy, but i had to write as fast as possible. Hopefully the codes and stuff i pick up today will explain better the disaster i am in.

[CA Cutlass Supreme]

Originally Posted by JohnDD

My wild guess is a bad connection where the major wiring harness goes through the firewall. I had that problem with my 91 Olds Cutlass Cierra when it wouldn't start. On my car it was C100.
Try wiggling the connector and then try to start the car. (You might also remove the connector and inspec the contacts for corrosion/ arcing).
Good luck.

I would love for it to be that simple. Can it be accessible by putting the car in neutral, disconnecting the dogbones and rotating the engine forward with a crowbar?

aaghh!!! danger Will Robinson! danger!

[CA Cutlass Supreme]

Ok, went down to the repair shop and although it's not quite the comprehensive list i was looking for, here are the codes (as written) that showed up.

Codes: 13, 21, 23, 24, 33, 34, 35, 41, 42, 55 & 66.

[CA Cutlass Supreme]

BTW: Where is the ECM located? Isn't it by the battery near the frame brace? I also am wondering where this NEW spare ECM and EPROM is. didn't see it inside the vehicle (aren't you supposed to get the parts you pay for?). He did put the keys and this very short code list in there.

I sure hope that he at least put the old ECM back in place. I need to check for that.

The more i get into this, the more i don't like it (smells fishier and fishier the more i get into it). I just want to get it away from there.

[xeroinfinity]

13 Oxygen Sensor(O2s)Circuit - open circuit
21 Throttle Position(TP) Sensor Circuit-signal voltage high
23 Intake Air Temperature(IAT)Sensor Circuit low Temperature
24 Vehicle Speed Sensor(VSS)Circuit
33 Manifold Absolute Pressure(MAP) Sensor circuit signal voltage high
33 Mass Air Flow Sensor Circuit-high frequency
34 Manifold Absolute Pressure(MAP) Sensor circuit signal voltage low
34 Mass Air Flow Sensor Circuit-low frequency
35 Idle speed Error
41 Ignition Control(IC) Timing Circuit Error(3100 VIN M)
42 Knock Sensor(KS) Circuit - spark timing
55 Fuel Lean Monitor
66 AC Refrigerant Pressure sensor circuit - low pressure

Sounds like yo have your hands full!

Ground and power issues are known for thise models as with a short in the harness through the fire wall...
And yes the stealership has to do the relearn most of the time, as not eveyone can afford the scann tools they use.

The ecu is under the hood by the fender, big aluminum box wire wire bundles going to it, cant miss it!~

Well from looking at the codes, either your ecu was bad, or every sensor on your car is malfunctioning at the same time, not likely on the second part. Sounds like it shorted something out or still is shorted....

Are all those codes still present after the ECU change ?

I personlay would not have payed for any repairs I didnt aprove of ie new ecu and programing.

Also CA Cutlass Supreme, watch the dates when posting!
We dont need to bring up threads older then 3 months.


Good Luck

[CA Cutlass Supreme]

Originally Posted by xeroinfinity

1

Sounds like yo have your hands full!

Ground and power issues are known for these models as with a short in the harness through the fire wall...
And yes the stealership has to do the relearn most of the time, as not eveyone can afford the scann tools they use.

Well from looking at the codes, either your ecu was bad, or every sensor on your car is malfunctioning at the same time, not likely on the second part. Sounds like it shorted something out or still is shorted....

Are all those codes still present after the ECU change ?

I personlay would not have payed for any repairs I didnt aprove of ie new ecu and programing.

Also CA Cutlass Supreme, watch the dates when posting!
We dont need to bring up threads older then 3 months.


Good Luck

Yes, i've got a full load with this car. Ran fine right up until it pooped out. So it has to be relearnt..ok.

The mechanic did mention that the new PCM / EPROM had the same readings when he changed to the "new" PCM/EPROM, so nothing changed or that it wouldn't show anything..so I'm not quite clear on that...still crazy and nonsense readings. I didn't see the spare brain thrown in the car, so i will ask him monday where the parts are that i paid for. He did mention that there wasn't any protection on GM vehicles from the battery to the brain, so maybe the problem lies somewhere in between?

Well, I'm in a catch 22 with the paying part. He called me and said that it was the brain and eprom and replacing it would fix the problem and i approved it. Later i find out, the problem is repeated with this new brain an eprom after dealer programming. He's stumped. Now i'm wondering if there even was a second brain or did someone static fry the first one and produced this story to recoup their labor costs....i'll never know... and this is the excuse? I still want to see the part i paid for...if not produced, i'll know they were scammin' me and I won't be back.

Parts

E.C.M. - $107.74
Knock Module (PROM) $18.68

Labor Descript.

vehicle dies while driving-advise - replace E.C.M. & Knock mOdule -$59.50
Replace E.C.M. & KNock Module - N/C

Other Charges
Reprogram ECM (S code) - $94.00

Sales Tax
22.96

I apologize if old threads were a problem. I'll stick to mine.

Thanks for your help guys (i know you sometimes don't get a thank you, but whoop, day it is!!)...when i get the car towed back home, i'm gonna start looking around and see what i can do.

I would love to see a loose connector @ the firewall or an obvious loose or melted bunch of wires. Then the car starts right up.....Xing fingers over here.

[xeroinfinity]

Ok a new eprom doesnt need anything but plug and play.
But he might have had your original reflashed, that would be why is cost so much. I found a new eprom on ebay for your 93 Cutlass for $25 in a box.

I'd still say its a wire somewhere shorted or a cicuit in the eprom has been toasted because of static.

Check with an Ohmmeter the resistance of the ground connections to the computer.

I also found your thread here http://www.pnwriders.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58209
And the dying at stops is most likely your TCC in the trany gettting ready to crap out. Here's a link for that repair procedure. http://autorepair.about.com/cs/doity.../aa011703b.htm


Back over this summer I worked on a 88 Chevy truck, and the dealer told the customer the ECU was bad and it was going to cost about $2200 to fix because parts werent easy to find.

They brought it to me, and I had a spare ecu and the thing still wouldnt run.
Spent the next 2 WEEKS inspecting wires and sure enough it had several wires shorted out in the main harness. Since no harness is available I had to fix each wire, probley had about 20 hrs total time in the search/repairs. Only charged them $400, which was a steal @ $50/hr.


Also have you had any other electric anomalies ???


Good Luck & Good Hunting!!

[CA Cutlass Supreme]

Originally Posted by xeroinfinity

I found a new eprom on ebay for your 93 Cutlass for $25 in a box.

I'd still say its a wire somewhere shorted or a cicuit in the eprom has been toasted because of static.

Check with an Ohmmeter the resistance of the ground connections to the computer.

I also found your thread here http://www.pnwriders.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58209
And the dying at stops is most likely your TCC in the trany gettting ready to crap out. Here's a link for that repair procedure. http://autorepair.about.com/cs/doity.../aa011703b.htm


Spent the next 2 WEEKS inspecting wires and sure enough it had several wires shorted out in the main harness. I had to fix each wire, probley had about 20 hrs total time in the search/repairs. Only charged them $400, which was a steal @ $50/hr.


Also have you had any other electric anomalies ???


Good Luck & Good Hunting!!

New EPRom no flash needed. check. Possible toast by static, yes, i could definitely believe that...done it myself with computer memory. Now i wear a ground wrist strap when messing with memory.

I do have a FLUKE multimeter...by checking to ground, do you mean putting a positive lead from to the harness connection ground (which plugs into computer ground that goes to the computer to chassis ground? So, computer ground at connector to chassis ground. I guess if i have conductivity, the ground would be good. If it shows an infinite, then theres a break in the ground correct, which could explain the high readings?
I would assume that these wires are all color coded, maybe i should check each and every colored wire @ both ends...if i find a short or open that could help? I wouldn't be surprised if they all read open...(connector problem)

TCC? what is that abbreviation for?

Other electric anomaly was a whisp of smoke every now and then from the steering column over the years. I had the turn signal piece in there replaced (wouldn't stay flashing or solid indicator) and it was a BI*ch for the electrician to put a new circular thingy in there. Also, the high/beam low beam switch is toast...id on't dare touch it for fear of being stuck on high beam all the time like the last time i bumped it accidentally. I did smell a plastic burning smell for awhile. ran over a plastic grovery store bag and you can see it hanging from the undercarriage in the center. The electronic gauge cluster seems to be needing replacement...sometimes the LEDs work sometimes they don't...i have understoold this could be related to the PROM, but not absolutely certain.

P.S.> Can i check for ground @ the ALDL connector? or do i have to disconnect everything...I'm not sure what way would be the correct way (key off) to shut off power to the ECM....i would think , if my model allows it, to remove a PCM fuse? Or do i just remove the battery?

[CA Cutlass Supreme]

It's raining and about 39 degrees, but i wanted to take a look under the hood near battery. Removed airbox/crossbrace to look at pos/neg. connections.



More pictures to come. I want to wait until i get a break in the weather. It looks like there are (2) fuse panels, 1 major panel by the ECM passenger side(fusible links/relays/fuses...fuses and links looked good...not sure how to check a relay.. and one on the driver side for aBS and other minor stuff...it connects to the positive offshoot from the battery. so it looks like i'll have to remove the battery before messing with those connections. I saw a long flat connector on the tranny? looked greasy as all hell and one easier to reach 3 or 4 wire connection near the back of the fuel injection...but that ground pictured, looks like an obvious thing to check or replace noose connector or wire.

Do you have any idea what this little noose connector leads too...is it the ground for the ALDL or ECM or ?

[CA Cutlass Supreme]

I called the dealer where the brain was done. It has a new ECM/PROM chip (core exchange), the service lady said the ECM was flashed??...I'm not sure if she meant the PROM or ECM, but will have technician at dealership call back. Sounds like the ECM was flashed, by what she is trying to get across. Also on my repair receipt, it has a list for reprogram ECM (829263) Code "S".

I called the repair shop where the car was serviced. Mechanic mentioned that the fuel pressure readings were "in spec". They could not check for pulse becuase of no spark? car not running? ECM readings were bad BEFORE unit was installed.
I asked about the service # for the old PROM. HE said it didn't have one when he sent the original in for "core" replacement/flashing. I asked if the part #216-61 (PROM) would be the new service # and he seemed to think so. The new ECM is part #88999208.

He referred to the coil pack as the "ignitor module". seems he couldnt' properly test it for one reason or another (car not running?).

The dealer is supposed to call me back. i'll post what i find.

Could i be having a problem in WA state because this is a California model car. Could the PROM NOT be a CA chip? Did the dealer catch this? Does it matter? I know that the repair shop pointed out that they recognized the car as a California car.