99 Metro 1.3 Problem

[azazel_18_2]

I decided it was time for a timing belt kit. Car ran ok. I have done many timing belts before but not one on a geo. The problem I have is what mark do I use on the camshaft? There are two notches. One has an E under it and One has an I. I figure one means exhaust and one means intake. WIth the crankshaft in TDC position the E on the camgear lined up with the notch on the cover. SO naturally I loosened the tensioner, removed the belt, insatlled a new belt and tensioner. Spun the engine a few times and the marks lined up the same. Not the engine will not start and if I sprak stuff into the intake it backfires. Car has 70k miles on it. 1.3L 4 banger with an auto trans. Just replaced the coil packs as well. Ran ok after I did the coil packs but now won't run at all. HELP!!!!!

[91Caprice9c1]

Originally Posted by azazel_18_2

I decided it was time for a timing belt kit. Car ran ok. I have done many timing belts before but not one on a geo. The problem I have is what mark do I use on the camshaft? There are two notches. One has an E under it and One has an I. I figure one means exhaust and one means intake. WIth the crankshaft in TDC position the E on the camgear lined up with the notch on the cover. SO naturally I loosened the tensioner, removed the belt, insatlled a new belt and tensioner. Spun the engine a few times and the marks lined up the same. Not the engine will not start and if I sprak stuff into the intake it backfires. Car has 70k miles on it. 1.3L 4 banger with an auto trans. Just replaced the coil packs as well. Ran ok after I did the coil packs but now won't run at all. HELP!!!!!

Well buddy I don't know what to tell you, and I hate to be redundant and insult your intelligence. (and here it comes) BUT - are you sure the marks are lined up properly? (Yes I know - you already said they're lined up) Okay, lets move on.

You got a backfire, which means you're getting spark, which means the ignition system is working which means the crank sensor is getting a signal. Are you getting fuel? Any thing you forgot to plug back in?

Here's the thing - what doesn't add up for me is that a backfire is highly indicative of a) incorrect ignition timing or b) (you guessed it) incorrect valve timing. Or c) a combination of the two or.

What I always like to do on these metros, If I'm uncertain about TDC compression vs TDC exhaust, is pull the distributor cap and look at the orientation of the rotor - this will tell you which mark on the cam sprocket to use. If the rotor is facing the #1 plug wire blah blah blah good to go.

If you're getting spark, and you're getting fuel, and the car ran fine right before R&Ring the timing belt... it sounds like the marks aren't exactly lined up.

See if you've got fuel (please don't catch a backfire to the face in so doing - it sucks) and after you've got proof positive for fuel, tear the face down and check the marks again. You know what... don't even check the marks, just take it all apart, pull the cap and put it back together again.

Maybe I'm being narrow-minded here? Anyone?

-MechanicMatt

[mauibuilt2004]

azazel if you ever give up on your car want to sell me your transmission? lol

[Woodie83]

Matt, you missed the fact that he's got a G13BB, no distributor and you can't see fuel looking in the throttle body. This engine sparks with both valves open between exhaust and intake so it might be normal for it to backfire if you spray something in it. Did you leave the crankshaft sensor disconnected? It's near the timing belt cover, maybe you unhooked it. I'd pop the valve cover off and make sure that the #1 valves are both closed when the crank pulley aligns with TDC, if not, use the other mark on the cam pulley.

[azazel_18_2]

The crankshaft position sensor is plugged in. It was replaced recently. I will check the markings again but I am 100% sure I had it right on the money. I'll keep everyone posted. What a pain in the ass having two marks on the cam pulley.

[azazel_18_2]

It is also getting fuel. I checked at the rail and it is getting plent of fuel. I pulled the rail off with the injectors still on it and they sprayed well. I am going to check the timing again.

[91Caprice9c1]

Oh man I feel like an ass. I apologise for making assumptions and overlooking the fact that by that time they went to a distributorless ignition and multi-port fuel injection! I have a question. Did they go with the dist.less ignition and mpfi only on the 4 cyls? Or did they do that to the 3 cyls also? When was the switch from TBI? Had to have been post-'97.

Well you know you have fuel and spark. And you know you have air and know that the engine is capable of making sufficient compression to run. So unless there is a vital sensor unplugged, it has to be the timing right?

Woodie - Thank you for correcting me.

Azazel - I'm sorry.

-MechanicMatt

[Woodie83]

No big deal, this engine is unlike any other in a Metro and was only in the 98 - 01 cars. It was also used in other Suzukis like the Samuri and Esteem in 1.3, 1.5, and 1.6 liter form. Some of the gurus think it has greater potential than the GTI twincam head. I've got a head at 3Tech right now for port, polish, milling, and lumpy cam. We'll see how it puts out (and whether I can keep the check engine light off).

[hot_sd]

Yes, according to my FSM the distributorless ignition and multi-port fuel injection is for the 4 cyl only. The 3 cyl uses TBI and has a distributor.

I have a 2000 4 cyl and even the dealer does not have the correct diagram for this engine on their computer. I accidentally caused a small oil leak around where the camshaft position sensor lives (where the distributor used to be in older models) while putting the trans back in - torque wrench slipped and hit the housing. The FSM does not mention an o-ring there and no auto parts stores had any info on this also. After long discussion with the dealer they got me a replacement o-ring which cost about $3.

[azazel_18_2]

OK, here is what I found out. The timing is PERFECT! Here's the deal, I checked the compression before I did any work on it and it had 185 psi in each cylinder. Now it has 60 after MUCH cranking. SO what do I do? I retard the timing gear a notch and crank her then I get 90 psi. I retard it another and I get 90 again. So I had the idea of advancing the cam gear. I advanced it one and got 170 psi per cylinder. I then advanced it one more tooth and I got the 185 psi back. The bitch still will not start. It has good compression, fire, fuel, and air. WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THIS THING??? I'm about to burn her to the ground and get some insurance money! ANy Ideas? I have the haynes and the chilton manuals and they are clueless. I do have the balencer on and that made no difference. I am about to buy a camshaft position sensor. Maybe it is firing at the wrong times? I don't know but it is pissing me off. I never never had this problem before. I have changed many honda accord and civic timing belts and a few eclipse timing belts and even the occasional Daewoo with no problem. SOHC or DOHC never had a problem.

[Hugemoth]

You are absoutely sure your timing isn't 180 degrees off?

Q

[azazel_18_2]

I am sure. I did it by the book. Took the plug out of cylinder 1. Inserted a compression gauge. Pulled timing cover off. Rotated engine until the timing marks lined up and had compression in cylinder 1. I then pulled the tensioner loose, removed the old timing belt, and installed the new timing belt making sure not to disturb the cam gear and crank gear. There is no way I got the timing 180 out because I didn't move the crank or cam while the old belt was off. I don't know what the deal is but she is getting ready to be a flamin.

[91Caprice9c1]

Azazel I'm sorry. I'm at a loss here - completely stumped. Assuming everything you're saying is true I just cannot imagine what could be causing your problem. Please post back when you get to the bottom of this.

-MechanicMatt

[azazel_18_2]

Here are the facts. I got her in time. I have fuel and the injectors are working. While the timing belt was being changed I changed the oil pan gasket. Whoever had it before just used silicone and no gasket on it so it leaked pretty good. I replaced both coils because one was shorting. I replaced the coil wires and spark plugs. I am getting fire. The only thing I can think of is this: If the injectors and spark isn't at the right time the engine will not run. There are no CEL's at the time. I am wonding if the camshaft position sensor could be bad. I already replaced the crankshaft position sensor. I am so stumped. I have been a mechanic for seven going on eight years now and have never had this problem or even heard of it. Compression, air, fuel, and spark. I have it all and it won't start. I would get a GM manual but damn they are expensive. I have downloaded Honda service manuals before but I couldn't find anything like that for my metro. Can anybody can help me?

[Woodie83]

The last guy who put the oil pan on without a gasket may have been the factory, AFAIK all G engines don't get a gasket when built. Anyway, here's a bizarre thing: I just looked in the FSM and it says to ensure that #4 cylinder is top dead center on the compression stroke, then the marks should align. I've never heard of that before, but that's what the book says. It appears that the E mark on the camshaft pulley is the one you should use, it's not mentioned in the text, but it's shown in one of the horrible drawings and certainly looks like an E.