99 Intrigue 3.5L rumbles when accelerating and when idlying in dirve

[rick graves]

Hi,

My daughter has a 99 Intirgue, 3.5L. It has recently (in the past 2 months), started to idle louder and the car "rumbles" when you accelerate. You can really feel the vibration in the steering wheel. It only does this when the car is out of park. When the car is in park it idles smooth and at a higher RPM. I also had a Service Engine Soon light come on, but replaced the CAM Sensor and that fixed the warning light.

Thanks again,

Rick

[panzer dragoon]

check those engine and tranny mounts.

[rick graves]

Sorry to be so ignorant ............ how would I check them and be able to tell if it's the engine and/or tranny mounts? Funny you mentioned that, because yesterday my brother (who's an expert with BMW's) recommended taking off the serpentine belt to see if it's the "bolt-on's" vs. the engine or transmission....................btw, I'm the opposite of good mechanic.

Rick

[panzer dragoon]

Originally Posted by rick graves

Hi,
I also had a Service Engine Soon light come on, but replaced the CAM Sensor and that fixed the warning light.

What did the OBD2 code say? (get a OBD2 scanner if you don't have one, or go somewhere like AutoZone to get your car OBD2 scanned for free) The Tech2 option (GM scan) could be a good idea also.

Broken mounts should be obvious with the car sitting on the driveway and reving the engine up in park or shifting thru the gears. Engine/Tranny will move and clunk.

The crappy idle is sort of the key here and that can screw up everything else. -start there and figure out why your idle is so loud. With the 3.5L you can barely tell when it's running sometimes =it's that quiet.

Torque Converter Clutch Shudder
The key to diagnosing Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) shudder is to note when it happens and under what conditions.
TCC shudder which is caused by the transmission should only occur during the apply or the release of the converter clutch. Shudder should never occur after the TCC plate is fully applied.
If Shudder Occurs During TCC Apply or Release
If the shudder occurs while the TCC is applying, the problem can be within the transmission or the torque converter. Something is causing one of the following conditions to occur:
· Something is not allowing the clutch to become fully engaged.
· Something is not allowing the clutch to release.
· The clutch is releasing and applying at the same time.
One of the following conditions may be causing the problem to occur:
· Leaking turbine shaft seals
· A restricted release orifice
· A distorted clutch or housing surface due to long converter bolts
· Defective friction material on the TCC plate
If Shudder Occurs After TCC has Applied
If shudder occurs after the TCC has applied, most of the time there is nothing wrong with the transmission.
The TCC is not likely to slip after the TCC has been applied. Engine problems may go unnoticed under light throttle and load, but they become noticeable after the TCC apply when going up a hill or accelerating. This is due to the mechanical coupling between the engine and the transmission.
Once TCC is applied, there is no torque converter (fluid coupling) assistance. Engine or driveline vibrations could be unnoticeable before TCC engagement.
Inspect the following components in order to avoid misdiagnosis of TCC shudder. An inspection will also avoid the unnecessary disassembly of a transmission or the unnecessary replacement of a torque converter.
· Spark plugs - Inspect for cracks, high resistance or a broken insulator.
· Plug wires - Look in each end. If there is red dust (ozone) or a black substance (carbon) present, then the wires are bad. Also look for a white discoloration of the wire. This indicates arcing during hard acceleration.
· Coil - Look for a black discoloration on the bottom of the coil. This indicates arcing while the engine is misfiring.
· Fuel injector - The filter may be plugged.
· Vacuum leak - The engine will not get a correct amount of fuel. The mixture may run rich or lean depending on where the leak occurs.
· EGR valve - The valve may let in too much or too little unburnable exhaust gas and could cause the engine to run rich or lean.
· MAP/MAF sensor - Like a vacuum leak, the engine will not get the correct amount of fuel for proper engine operation.
· Carbon on the intake valves - Carbon restricts the proper flow of air/fuel mixture into the cylinders.
· Flat cam - Valves do not open enough to let the proper fuel/air mixture into the cylinders.
· Oxygen sensor - This sensor may command the engine too rich or too lean for too long.
· Fuel pressure - This may be too low.
· Engine mounts - Vibration of the mounts can be multiplied by TCC engagement.
· Axle joints - Check for vibration.
· TP Sensor - The TCC apply and release depends on the TP Sensor in many engines. If the TP Sensor is out of specification, TCC may remain applied during initial engine loading.
· Cylinder balance - Bad piston rings or poorly sealing valves can cause low power in a cylinder.
· Fuel contamination - This causes poor engine performance.

[rick graves]

Hi,

The original codes were P0340 - camshaft position and P410 - secondary system malfunction .... recommended checking air pump, blockage, etc.. ..... I replaced the CAM sensor to address P0340 and both codes disappeared.

The engine definitley moves and clunks when you move from park to drive. The cars idles quieter and smoother in park, and then gets noisier in dirve. I also replaced the plugs and no noticible difference (th plugs looked fine). Would bad engine or tranny mounts also give you move vibration in the steering wheel and car?

Thanks,

Rick

[rick graves]

Hi,

Yesterday my Service Engine Light came back on. I had this a week ago and had 2 codes:

Code 0340 - Cam sensor condition

1. Cam sensor defective
2. Check connector and wiring to sensor
3. Engine mechancial condition belt/chain out of time.

Code 0410 - Secondary air injection system fault.

1. Circuit relay defective or fuse open
2. Check connector and wiring
3. Air pump defective or hoses blocked

I replaced the Cam Sensor a few days ago and this code did not come back. The P0410 is the code that now displays on the reader. The car is still idlying a bit louder when in drive (and idlying rougher in drive), and also rumbles when accelerating (and I think with less power, but not exactly sure since I don't drive it much). Any thoughts?

[panzer dragoon]

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...archid=1969631

[dtownfb]

Here's a link to a recent discussion on the secondary air pump.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...ndary+air+pump

[burijon]

GmPartsDirect.com has the air pump for $110. They indicated in an email that it was the "updated" part number. I hope that means it was the redesigned one that doesn't crap out as quickly. GM PART # 12568795

Really sounds like motor/tranny mounts they way that you describe the clunk going into gears. If you can pinpoint the mounts you should be able to see whether the rubber is torn or not. Good luck!

Let us know how it goes for the benefit of others.

[rick graves]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the additional infomation. I read the article on the secondary air pump (thanks), and based on that, is it saying that the secondary air pump only runs for awhile and then shuts off? The rumbling I hear doesn't go away, no matter how long you drive the car. Having said that, I do have the P0410 codes which would mean there is something wrong in this area and possibly the engine and tranny mounts too? I'll look at the mounts with my brother, but could the noise from the pump stay on the entire time you drive the car?

[rick graves]

My brother checked it out as well. The car idles rougher in gear (more so in drive), and the top engine mount looks fine (no cracks or tears). The car rumbles when accelerating (at all speeds). The service engine light is still on and the code is P0410. Could a blockage or something that's referenced with the P0410 code cause this effect? Could replacing the secondary airpump, etc. fix this? He was thinking it might be a good idea to have the transmission fluid changed, but that wouldn't address the warning light. This is a difficult one to diagnose (at least for me). Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Rick

[Hoppy2]

Rick,

If you read my previous posts you will see that I didn't get any codes, but do have a very loud secondary AIR pump. I took the motor apart and greased it but it did not really improve the sound level much.

I did do a test this weekend. I pulled the relay for the AIR pump to see if I would get a code. Yep, it was P0418? Or something close to it, but it did say that the code meant the relay circuit was at fault, obviously because I pulled the relay.

I would almost bet dimes to doughnuts that your pump motor is either on its way out or dead simply for the reason your car is 8 years old now and these AIR pumps are apparently prone to getting water in them and messing up the motor bearings etc.

If you crawl on your back under the drivers side bumper in front of the wheel and look up you will be able to see the bottom of the blower. Mine fell apart at the bottom due to the terrible design of it. See if you can pull the bottom cover off of it. It has a hose attached to it which goes up into the fender with a filter on the end of it. You can see this by pulling your headlight out. Once you get the lower cover off you should be able to see the impeller in the bottom of the pump. There is a 1" diameter intake in the middle of it. See if you can turn the impeller at all. DO NOT USE ANY TOOLS IN THIS HOLE TO TRY TO TURN IT. The reason is that the impellers are very thin tin and bend easy. I know this from disassembling the entire pump. They are very flimsy and fragile. If the impellers do not turn, well I am going to assume that the motor is seized up and it probably needs a new one.

Hope this helps.

[rick graves]

Thanks for the last recommendation. I'll go through the process you recommend in the next couple of days (as soon as my daughter lets me look at her car), and post a reply. I really appreciate the suggestions, especially since this has been more difficult to isolate.

Best regards,

Rick

[Edie5]

Rick,

I am just wondering if you ever resolved this issue. My 99 Olds Intrigue 3.5L is doing exactly what you described. I have not had a diagnostic check, because the mechanics said that the first thing it would say is that I needed a tune-up (it's at 120K and still on original plugs). I changed out the plugs, the oil, and the air filter this weekend, but the rumbling is no better. I am planning on trying the PCV valve next, since this hasn't been replaced at all either, but I'm thinking this is going to be something more complicated.

Have you determined the cause of your rumbling? What have you done to fix it?

Thanks!!

[rick graves]

Hi, I just wanted to update my situation. It turns out the Crank Sensor was bad so I had it replaced. The car was difficult to start (especially after driving), and this fixed it. Aso had my transmission flushed ........ It turns out I also have bad motor mounts (which was the cauze of vibration and growling,e tc.) and just posted another thread to ask a question about all the mounts (motor, transmission, and torque struts).
Thanks again!,
Rick