individualism

[taranaki]

An old friend of AF asked if I could ask on behalf.........

Does individualism represent a pitfall in modern American society?

[darkness]

Originally posted by taranaki
An old friend of AF asked if I could ask on behalf.........

Does individualism represent a pitfall in modern American society?

I think it's more commercialisation, but thats becoming global.

[Moppie]

Originally posted by taranaki

Does individualism represent a pitfall in modern American society?

Don't you mean the lack of individualism?

[DantesInferno]

Do the values imposed on a person within society in the name of Individualism threaten society as a whole? If we are constantly emphasizing the individual in society, who are we leaving behind? In the name of Individualism, we pursue our own dreams, our own ambitions, and as time passes, we let others influence such decisions less and less. Is there something that should be said about that?

[JD@af]

Originally posted by DantesInferno
Do the values imposed on a person within society in the name of Individualism threaten society as a whole? If we are constantly emphasizing the individual in society, who are we leaving behind? In the name of Individualism, we pursue our own dreams, our own ambitions, and as time passes, we let others influence such decisions less and less. Is there something that should be said about that?

There certainly is something to be said about that. Individualism threatens some of the core values of our society’s infrastructure. By putting individualism first, you are putting family second. Individualism leads to less compromise, and less willingness to allow others to make guided decisions, that will benefit more than just one person.

Today, you see ever-increasing divorce rates, ever-increasing percentages of families where both parents work, leaving less and less attention being paid to the children. It is not punishable, but it is a crime. Children grow up unattended and left to their own ways. There is something to be said for children learning to be independent, learning to be as self-sufficient as possible. But children also need a loving and nurturing environment. Sociologists remind us that those that lack this, one way or another, are more prone to a life of crime as they “mature.” And I’ve heard stories from friends in the teaching profession, of how kids today really are wild and uncontrollable, and the reason is that mom and dad weren’t around when they needed to be to say “no.” Neglect should never have snuck its way into our regiment of family values.

There is something to be said about individualism as a virtue as well. Individualism caters to independent creativity and inspiration. Free thinkers who changed history, like Albert Einstein, were arguably better off spending their time with their brain power devoted to advanced concepts of physics and the like, rather than falling flat on their faces trying to be “good parents” with Madame Curie. But wealth has become so glorified, and therefore coveted, that the nobility of family life, of being a good mother or a good father, has become a back burner ideal to individual success. In America, we are victims of our own success. Despite a slumping economy now, we are still the wealthiest and most powerful nation in the world, bar none. It is everywhere you turn here. It is what people draw their strength, and their drive to do well in life, from. The desire to have a strong family is a shrinking piece of the pie. Eventually, we will see the error of our ways, and family, not individualism, will be held in the high regard that it needs to be.

[tonioseven]

Originally posted by taranaki
An old friend of AF asked if I could ask on behalf.........

Does individualism represent a pitfall in modern American society?

It would seem so but in my opinion, there are many people trying to be "their own individual" yet the majority resemble one another in lots of similar ways; kinda oxymoronic I think.

[Oz]

The major pitfall of individualism on American (read-first world) culture is an inherent rise in selfish people/acts. Eg. divorce, deciding not to have children, following MY dreams etc. It would seem the natural continuation after America being so involved in 'my rights'.

[boingo82]

Originally posted by Oz
The major pitfall of individualism on American (read-first world) culture is an inherent rise in selfish people/acts. Eg. divorce, deciding not to have children, following MY dreams.....

...owning SUVs, not signalling, stealing mp3s off the internet, etc. I would not include the "deciding not to have children" bit as a selfish act. I would prefer that these type of people do not reproduce.

And as tonioseven said, most "individuals" are attempting to be just like other people, only it's people in a different crowd. Think goths, or Harley guys, etc.

[Oz]

Thank you for seeing my point. It would have been easy to take out of context and shoot down. But then again, that's not really the point of this forum is it?

[boingo82]

Originally posted by Oz
Thank you for seeing my point. It would have been easy to take out of context and shoot down. But then again, that's not really the point of this forum is it?

I can't tell whether or not you're being sarcastic.

[Oz]

Not at all. That was a genuine thank you. Considering the fact that I was talking about the country that you're from (and the country that most of the world seems to imitate - hmm...in a thread on individualism?) it would have been easy/natural for you to go on the defensive.

[boingo82]

Originally posted by Oz
Not at all. That was a genuine thank you. Considering the fact that I was talking about the country that you're from (and the country that most of the world seems to imitate - hmm...in a thread on individualism?) it would have been easy/natural for you to go on the defensive.

Oh. Well I do agree, many people here are idiots. Most people buy a car based simply on what looks "cool" (SUVs) even though they are very wasteful and not at all necessary. Before buying a car, I research every possible aspect of the purchase, and very thoroughly. I have a list of 6-7 websites I check for information on reliability, owner satisfaction, common issues (every car has an achilles heel, and it's up to the buyer to find out what it is), etc. I was researching my G20 for 5-6 months before I totaled my Sentra because I wanted to be sure I got an appropriate car. I feel that I did. The car is perfectly satisfactory for occupants while simultaneously posing less of a threat to non-occupants than most vehicles.

Interestingly the same people who buy SUVs tend to live in stupid houses. You know the houses I'm talking about. They have 4,000+ sq. ft., and only around 2,000 of it is usable and practical. My policy is, if I'm going to spend that kind of money on a house, it's going to be properly designed. I'm going to get the maximum efficiency, functionality, and attractiveness for my dollar. To do otherwise would be wasteful. But most people simply want a big, huge house and a big, huge SUV to impress the neighbors.

I think there is too much "me, me, me!!" going on nowadays, and I'm definitely guilty of it from time to time. (Reminds me of a Simpsons parody of Who Wants To Be A Millionare?, titled "Me Wantee!!".) I think individualism is good, but not when it's to the detriment of society. However, it's hard to draw the line. There are a lot of formerly uncurable illnesses that can now be treated...that's good for the individual, but in another way it's bad for the human race because we're interfering with natural selection.

Likewise I consider it a very bad idea to keep prisoners the way we do, in a veritable country club. I toured the US Maximum Security Federal Penitentiary in Florence, CO, right after it was built. It was disgusting, how well the prisoners were treated. With one downside (people watching you go to the bathroom), I remember thinking that their lives in that maximum security prison were better than the lives I and my family were living, and we had worked for ours. As soon as space travel becomes more economical, I propose we start dropping the prisoners off on Mars. If they can survive, great. Without a preexisting society to leech off of, they'll have to become functional members of their own society. If they don't survive, also great. Their decomposing bodies will provide the basis for a rudimentary ecosystem that will become more and more habitable. You probably think I'm not serious, but I am. It worked wonders in Australia. Fact is, criminals cannot stay as criminals unless they are able to leech off productive members of society.

On another side of things, I think that the bigger government gets, the harder it is for people to think of the good of the nation. Right now, the government takes large portions of working folks' paychecks and distributes the money to the "less fortunate". Too often, they are not less fortunate, just less prudent. When the government dictates charity, it removes the personal-ness of the donation. It makes the donator resentful and the donatee anonymous. Right now, people are unashamed to be on Welfare. 80 years ago, this was not the case. To be on Welfare was shameful, and as such, people would do anything they could to support themselves and their families rather than suffer the shame of being on the public dole.

2 years ago, my family participated in a local "Adopt-A-Family" program, where you buy presents for a less fortunate family so that they can have a Christmas too. We had been doing so well financially, we made $38,000 that year for a family of eight. That was enough money to not recieve free school lunches any more, they were merely reduced-price. My parents decided to participate in the program, and were assigned to a family of four (parents and 2 kids, about 9 and 7 years of age) who made $35,000 yearly (it said so on the family info sheet we were given). The parents both smoked and drank, and their yard was littered with bottles and butts. The mother bragged how she had saved up and bought the kids a Nintendo 64 (or whatever was popular at the time) for the kids.

We took the kids shopping. Neither one had a winter coat, so that was the first thing each picked out. Then each chose a $20 toy, and then they chose some kitchen thing for their parents. That was all the extra money my parents had to spend. We participated in the program that year, but never again. My mom was too disgusted by the family who made nearly as much money as us, but blew it on smokes, drinks, and video games rather than buy their children winter coats.

There are many people who are legitimately down on their luck, going through hard times who need the charity. But in my experience they are far outweighed by people with no discretion when it comes to money. This, combined with many charities who take such a large amount for administrative costs, has soured many people on charity. I think it's unfortunate, as the only way to reduce the administrative costs is to bring charity back to a local level, where locals are doing the work and recieving the boosted spirits from helping someone they know, and the people being helped see humans making sacrifices to help them. That way the helpees feel guilty for needing it and obligated to pay it forward.

Enough of my off-topic rambling. That's a problem I have, I constantly change the subject, and even more frequently interrupt myself (see my excessive usage of parentheses).

[Steel]

these days, you cant be tooooooo individual of course, cause then your an outcast.

I think the minds of people these days are "Individual....together!"

[Oz]

Go Boingo, go boingo, go go go boingo....
:jumpie:

[tonioseven]

This has to be some of the best conversation I've encountered in a long time! Thank you all for reminding me that my brain is still functional! Personally, I believe that there is so much "individualism" around here that it's contributing to the demise of society as we know it We only come together as a country when something forces us to leave our comfort zone and sometime later, we go back to our ouwn little worlds until the next disaster! I worry constantly as a father of 2 sons, what kind of world will my children grow to inherit ifthing keep progressing the way they are. All I can do is to be a good father and do the best I can; I think I'm helping society a lot in that capacity. As "individual" as we'd all like to be, there are too many similarities to ignore. Just some babble coming from one individual. :grey: