Water VS Antifreeze & Clutch fan VS Non-Clutch

PeteA216 · #1 05-30-2007, 12:15 PM

Hi guys,
How much cooler does pure water cool an engine as opposed to the 50/50 water/antifreeze mix? My engine is running too hot in city driving even with a 160 degree thermostat, probably because a have a 2 core radiator trying to cool a high compression 350. I just want it to run cooler until I replace the radiator with a 3 core. Also a mechanic from Pehlier Pontiac told me to get a clutchless fan to help cool the engine more. Is that a good idea? Won't it be a power drain on the motor? Thanks for any advice!

silicon212 · #2 05-30-2007, 01:54 PM

Pure water won't perform better than the proper mix of coolant - but it WILL lower your peak boilover temperature and it will corrode (rust) components within the engine. You will have muddy-looking water from the rust, if your engine has steel freeze plugs, they will eventually begin leaking, and if you have an aluminum intake, it will also start leaking.

A fanless clutch will have a power drain on the engine, as well as be LOUD. You could get a flex fan, or you can stick with a clutch and get one for heavy duty applications.

PeteA216 · #3 05-30-2007, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Pure water won't perform better than the proper mix of coolant

Why do the guys at the race track run water as coolant instead of antifreeze?

CD Smalley · #4 05-30-2007, 07:28 PM

Easier cleanup. Most run a product called waterwetter in addition to the H2O.

silicon212 · #5 05-30-2007, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteA216

Why do the guys at the race track run water as coolant instead of antifreeze?

#1, the radiators on race cars are a little bit more robust than what we run in our cars (welded aluminum vs. soldered brass and copper), and
#2, antifreeze is toxic and slippery - for that reason and others, most sanctioning bodies (including NASCAR) prohibit its use, and
#3, the engines get drained and broke down after each race, the water doesn't sit in the cooling system for extended periods.

How do I know this? I once built a NASCAR factory stock car. Never raced it, instead we sold it, but we had to build it to the rulebook because tech is a bitch if they catch something amiss.

At least in NASCAR, Water Wetter is prohibited as well - only straight water.

FWIW, diesel-electric railroad locomotives only run straight water as well.

Blue Bowtie · #6 05-30-2007, 10:45 PM

Keep about 25-30% glycol in the water, and you'll get some boil protection, as well as the corrosion protection and pump seal lubricant you need. In my experience, the latent heat capacity of coolant mixture starts to drop with over 30% solutions. 50/50 mixture sometimes won't carry enough heat to cool an engine effectively, especially if the radiator is contaminated or sized too closely to the need, or the engine is no longer stock.

bobss396 · #7 05-31-2007, 06:59 AM

Do you have a fan shroud? Those are good for 20 degrees of cooling if they are installed right and tight. I agree on the flex fan, but a solid fan will pull more air and grab some HP and are loud.

I owned and drove stock cars and the track officials would pull their hair out if someone leaked antifreeze onto the track. Even after the clean up was done, speedi-dri and all, the stripe or spot on the track would remain greasy until it rained good or they hosed it down. Now an antifreeze spill is considered toxic.

I was running one short track that had an antifreeze stripe from the top of the track to the bottom one night. At full throttle the tires would break loose every time I crossed it.

Bob

PeteA216 · #8 05-31-2007, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Do you have a fan shroud? Those are good for 20 degrees of cooling if they are installed right and tight. I agree on the flex fan, but a solid fan will pull more air and grab some HP and are loud.

Yeah I most definately have a fan shroud. I can't see the fan being bery functional without one. What is a flex fan? I've never heard of one. How does one work?

silicon212 · #9 05-31-2007, 12:39 PM

A flex fan is a direct-driven fan (no clutch) that has blades that vary in pitch with engine RPM. Usually, the blades are made out of thin stainless steel. At lower RPM, they deliver more air (and use more power) than they do at higher RPM.

PeteA216 · #10 05-31-2007, 04:28 PM

And you recommend this in the place of my clutched fan?

GreyGoose006 · #11 05-31-2007, 07:00 PM

a flex fan will basically be its own clutch fan in a way.
as it spins faster and the metal bends (flexes) and pushes less air.

personally, i think that an electric fan would be the best choice here
get an electric fan and program it to run all the time unless the speed is above a certain speed, or the coolant is below a certain temp.

any other way, you will lose a lot of power by spinning the fan

of course you could stop being a bum and just go and get a better radiator.
get an aluminum 3 core and be done with it

PeteA216 · #12 06-01-2007, 12:36 AM

Quote:

of course you could stop being a bum and just go and get a better radiator. Get an aluminum 3 core and be done with it

Smart *ss...
I've been looking for a 3 core, but in literally, no lie, every one of the 7 auto parts stores (Napa, Nu Way, Auto Zone, Advance Auto Parts, Long Pond Auto, Advantage Auto, & Union Auto Parts) I've been to either a 3 core was unavailable, or it was a special order that won't arrive for at the quickest 6 business days (Advance Auto Parts was the quickest). It was hard for me to hold back a snicker at Auto Zone's "heavy duty" radiator... it was a single row, 1" aluminum core with plastic tanks. The only thing I saw good about it was the aluminum core. I tried removing the thermostat with no effect.

BUT! There is good news. I did solve the problem. I tried a flex fan as Silicon advised for $35 with the spacer. It has it's ups and downs...
Noticable Downs:
-Audible at higher RPMs, but not bad.
Noticable Ups:
-Engine now doesn't even get to 120 degrees (before flex fan it reached just under 205 degrees with gentle driving)
-Heat in engine compartment from headers is practically gone!
-Much much more power when warm due to massive amount of cool air flowing by open element air filter
-I was able to successfully advance the timing with no ping!
-Looks better than stock clutch fan (polished stainless fins)

It's amazing what something as simple as a fan will do. Eventually I will get a good radiator like I want, but for now while cash and time is of the essence this fan is a great fix! To be honest I didn't think this would do too much of anything, but when I put my hand in front of the radiator (before first drive) and felt the massive suction, and the powerful blast of air behind the fan I knew this had to do something. Good call guys! (Silicon especially) Thanks!!

P.S. An electric fan did cross my mind while radiator shopping Goose. It is a good idea. That actually may be an upgrade in the future to help gain more a little more HP.

silicon212 · #13 06-01-2007, 01:00 AM

Quote:

P.S. An electric fan did cross my mind while radiator shopping Goose. It is a good idea. That actually may be an upgrade in the future to help gain more a little more HP.

TANSTAAFL.

If you use less power from the engine in directly running the fan, you will use more power to turn the alternator. The beauty of electric fans is that they shut off when you don't need them - i.e., at freeway speed when airflow through the grille is sufficient to keep the coolant in check.

* TANSTAAFL = "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch"

PeteA216 · #14 06-01-2007, 01:05 AM

Quote:

TANSTAAFL.

If you use less power from the engine in directly running the fan, you will use more power to turn the alternator. The beauty of electric fans is that they shut off when you don't need them - i.e., at freeway speed when airflow through the grille is sufficient to keep the coolant in check.

Y'know, I have to agree with that. I see RWD cars such as the Thunderbird by Ford as new as 1999 that has a fan powered by the motor. I think electric fans came out because in wrong wheel drive cars the engine is sideways and has no means of turning a fan.

Now that I think of it, I believe my father's '06 Silverado has an engine driven clutch fan, plastic with more blades though.

P.S. Silicon, what time is it for you right now? It's a little after 1 AM here in NY.

silicon212 · #15 06-01-2007, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteA216

Y'know, I have to agree with that. I see RWD cars such as the Thunderbird by Ford as new as 1999 that has a fan powered by the motor. I think electric fans came out because in wrong wheel drive cars the engine is sideways and has no means of turning a fan.

Now that I think of it, I believe my father's '06 Silverado has an engine driven clutch fan, plastic with more blades though.

P.S. Silicon, what time is it for you right now? It's a little after 1 AM here in NY.

It's after 10PM here now. We're 3 hours behind you guys (MST) here in AZ.

We have two Silverados at work, a 1999 4.8L K1500 and a 2002 5.3L C1500. They both have plastic 9-blade engine-driven fans. The 2002 is in the midst of an engine and transmission rebuild (got the 4L60E done, waiting on the machine shop for the rest). I can't believe that you can only get the head gasket set for that engine (5.3) from a dealer. No other place in the land has them, from what I've been able to search.

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