R12 Refrigerant

[PeteA216]

Just wondering, does anybody have a can of R-12 A/C refridgerant they aren't using and would like to give up?
~Pete

[silicon212]

Good luck! The stuff is now $40-$50/lb.

For that reason and that reason alone, I converted mine to R134a. Don't believe what some people might tell you - R134a provides just as much cooling as R12 does. The main thing to remember is that it has a higher operating pressure, which means you use less. On my car, the R12 charge is over 3 lbs, but the R134a is just over two pounds and it works just as well.

If you do the conversion route, make sure the system is completely evacuated and all traces of the old oil are removed. Use a conversion oil (ester) instead of PAG oil.

[mike561]

yeah mine was converted when i bought it, i really notice no difference in R-12 and 134a. if its cold its cold and ill be happy. i herd you need some type of liscence to get R 12 or something?

[silicon212]

Originally Posted by mike561

yeah mine was converted when i bought it, i really notice no difference in R-12 and 134a. if its cold its cold and ill be happy. i herd you need some type of liscence to get R 12 or something?

You need to be certified to handle refrigerant, which means that you show the state you're in that you know the law pertaining to its handling and storage. You cannot legally buy the R12 or any other chlorofluorocarbon-based refrigerant without that piece of paper.

[PeteA216]

You cannot legally buy the R12 or any other chlorofluorocarbon-based refrigerant without that piece of paper.

Thats why I asked around here to see if anybody had some they'd like to "give up". Odds are I'll do the conversion as I had in a few other cars, but this is just so borderline low that it seems like a waste to get rid of all the R-12 to convert it.

[beat88ls]

Originally Posted by PeteA216

Thats why I asked around here to see if anybody had some they'd like to "give up". Odds are I'll do the conversion as I had in a few other cars, but this is just so borderline low that it seems like a waste to get rid of all the R-12 to convert it.

My friend’s dad did refrigeration for 30 years, he has 6 tanks about the size of BBQ grill propane tanks full of r12 and refuses to use them because it is worth so much money

[mike561]

hehe if he ever wanted to he could probably sell them for big $$$

[kahjdh]

In my high school shop we have 3 of those propane like tanks just sitting there. We had some body come in last year and asked if we would pay to drain their system. I didnt realize this stuff was worth anything.

[silicon212]

Originally Posted by kahjdh

In my high school shop we have 3 of those propane like tanks just sitting there. We had some body come in last year and asked if we would pay to drain their system. I didnt realize this stuff was worth anything.

The manufacture of new R12 was banned beginning on 1-1-1996. Anything that's out there is old stock. With the dwindling supply, and systems that still require it (such as walk-in coolers and freezers), supply and demand are such that the price is continuously going up.

[Blue Bowtie]

I have had universal (not mobile) certification since July 1994. R-12 is still available in both virgin and reclaimed form. I can get it, as well as liquid R11 in 55G drums, ammonia in tankers, etc. Even though the R12 prices are high, it really isn't worth that much any more. Nobody really uses it much around here since tertiary, zeotropic blends have replaced it. R401A, R406A, and R414B are available as retro-refrigerants. R414B is a direct drop-in replacement, which actually performs slightly better than raw R12 and with less stress on those aging R12 systems (lower head and condensed pressures). I keep a 25-er of R414B in my stock just for older systems, since they CAN be mixed, both legally and in terms of operational effectiveness. Those systems MUST be clearly marked to indicate that, however, since any refrigerant recovered from these systems must be reclaimed and not recycled.

Not to argue much, but either one (R12 or R414B) performs better than R134A. The latent heat capacity of R134 is not even close to R12, and R134A system pressures are certainly higher. To be equal, an R134A system really requires an evaporator area about 30% larger than an equivalent R12 system. It will cool, but as ambient temperatures rise, it loses cooling efficiency very fast. In other words, when you REALLY want cooling, R134A systems start to fall on their faces unless they are sized appropriately. Most people who retrofit only change the expansion control (TEV or orifice tube array), charge fittings, and system oil, and never bother sizing the evaporator properly. Then again, it's just a vehicle, and you've got windows.

[mike561]

i diddnt know they used R12 in walk in freezers, i know in home ac units R22 is whats used right? i do some AC work wit my neighbor sometimes so i pick up some knowlege here and there

[silicon212]

There's the definitive voice. I have to admit that my car has its original evap and condenser in it. Plus, I only use it when someone's in the car with me. I usually drive around with "440 air conditioning" when I'm alone.

ammonia in tankers

I've seen that stuff in railroad tankers. Imagine if there was a derailment! BTW, for the others in this forum, that's 'anhydrous ammonia' and it's used as a refrigerant where refrigerant is needed in mass amounts (say, that dairy processing plant). It works very well as a refrigerant, but it's highly toxic and extremely reactive. This isn't the stuff you buy in stores.

[PeteA216]

I know I've probably already asked this before, and I'm gonna look like an idiot asking, but what does BTW mean?

R414B is a direct drop-in replacement, which actually performs slightly better than raw R12 and with less stress on those aging R12 systems

Where can someone (me) acquire R414B? If R134a isn't all that great, why didn't they make a retrofit kit with R414B instead?

['97ventureowner]

Originally Posted by PeteA216

I know I've probably already asked this before, and I'm gonna look like an idiot asking, but what does BTW mean?

Where can someone (me) acquire R414B? If R134a isn't all that great, why didn't they make a retrofit kit with R414B instead?

BTW stands for "By The Way".
I remember back in the late '80s the talk in the garage I was working in about the eminent demise of R12 and it's replacement. Some said one of the reasons R12 was being "done away with" was that DuPont had the patent on it and that patent was set to expire soon, so they lobbied the government to start doing away with it rather than have the patent expire then lose money o it,(because once the patent expired, any company could produce it.)They then lobbied to have R134a replace it as they also held the patent on that product and stood to make a good amount of money on it. I'm not sure how accurate that"conspiracy theory" was as I never heard more about it over the years. It seems plausible as something similar occurs in the pharmaceutical industry all the time when a patent expires then other companies can produce the drug(aka generic) and the original company then makes a lot less money on it. I don't know if any body else heard that theory as well.

[PeteA216]

Thanks... I knew I'd look stupid. But hey, as they say in elementary school "you can't learn anything if you don't ask." So does that mean that R414B is unavailable to the consumer?