Not The Update I was hoping to Have

[Mikelb]

Wow,

this is not what I had in mind. I've done a lot to the Talon, and had it running last weekend. It wasn't quite right, but I got stuff figured out, and was expecting to do a major update (full of good news) today. Well, I can't do that...


I had the Talon running 2 weekends ago. It was beautiful. I come to the conclusion that the AFC was fried along with the old ECU. had to rewire the ECU for stock operation. Then I got her started, after a host of last minute "I forgot to..." shit. It was a beautiful moment for me.


So the Talon's purring along, and I wanted to drive it to my house (it was sitting at my mom's house). Yeah, there was no getting the car into gear. My clutch didn't have nearly enough pressure. So I started the car in gear. The way it was facing, I had to drive into my mom's back yard and around the pool and trampoline, turn it around and drive back out. So, I would start it and go a little ways before turning it off, b/c the car was idling at a/b 3k RPM and wanting to speed forward. I went to start it and I heard nothing but the starter spinning. After looking around for a few, I realized that the starter wasn't engaging the flywheel. I assumed the solenoid was bad, and called it a day.

Last Saturday, I went to resume working on the car. I pulled the battery out (it was dead, I had been using the BMW battery) and the starter. I immediately knew what was wrong with the starter, but figured I might as well get it checked out. One of the wires had come undone and the starter would turn, but not engage the flywheel. So, I get the replacement battery (free, thank God for warranties). The starter tested out ok, so I got outta there.
Back at the car, I hooked the starter up, and within 10 min was trying to start 'er up. No such luck. I was getting no spark. Now I know damn well that the ignition coils are good, as well as the transistor pack and the ECU. So I go out and play with the CAS. I got the injectors to click and the car would spark, but I could never get the car to start.

I kept trying (yeah, I have perseverance, that or ignorance... either way, it's a disease) I could get it to spark once or twice here and there, but no start. All of a sudden the damn car made an aweful clanking noise, everytime it turned over. Fearing the worst, I had a friend go listen for the sound. He confirmed my fears and told me it was coming from the transmission side. I got him to crank the car while I listened. I noticed that the transmission jumped everytime the car turned over. Then the fuckin' bellhousing cracked. This is the second transmission that its done that to. The first one I attributed to cheap clutch parts. Now I think it's more serious.

I ignored the clanking and got the car back around to the ramps (SUV ramps, BTW, for that extra clearance). I had to pull the bumper and intercooler piping off to get it up the ramps. It was getting dark and cold, so I called it a night. What do you guys think could be wrong? Bent crank? Crank Walk? Starting the car in gear? (I've never had a problem with doing that to other cars before) I don't understand... I haven't pulled it apart yet, but it's a bit on the cold side here... I'd like to know what to look for first anywayz.

Thanks,
-Mikelb

[Blackcrow64]

Wow... I have no clue what would be causing that. If the crank was bent then your motor would most certainly be way out of balance and the entire car would shake like hell... I donno... That is certainly strange...

[gthompson97]

If the crank was bent, the car shouldn't even hardly run because the bearings would be tremendously fucked. Are you sure everything was aligned correctly when you installed the tranny? It sounds like an alignment problem to me more than anything else.

[Thor06]

What are you running for a flywheel? Maybe a cheap aftermarket? Think you maybe stipped a few teeth? Did you check timing? When the timing is off the car will do funny things while turning such as lurch at different times etc. I would check those two things first. Other than that, I would have to think a while.

[Mikelb]

Blackcrow64:Wow... I have no clue what would be causing that. If the crank was bent then your motor would most certainly be way out of balance and the entire car would shake like hell... I donno... That is certainly strange...

Yeah, I started the car once before I put that last mount on (to test and see if the car was running yet). The car shook like a bitch having withdrawals. I put the other prothane in(transmission mount) and it stopped. I had to use a prybar and loosen the mount from the inner fender to get it to line up though.

gthompson97:If the crank was bent, the car shouldn't even hardly run because the bearings would be tremendously fucked. Are you sure everything was aligned correctly when you installed the tranny? It sounds like an alignment problem to me more than anything else.

The car isn't running. It will turn over, but not getting spark (got fuel) and I had to pry the transmission to mount it, but before that, it was all aligned.

Thor06:What are you running for a flywheel? Maybe a cheap aftermarket? Think you maybe stipped a few teeth? Did you check timing? When the timing is off the car will do funny things while turning such as lurch at different times etc. I would check those two things first. Other than that, I would have to think a while.

My flywheel is stock. I think I did strip a few teeth (I tried to start it, and the motor wouldn't turn over, I used a wrench on the cam gears and moved it a few degrees, then the car began to turn over again). I moved the CAS to adjust the timing. The belt had just been done. The car will not fire often, but I just replaced the whole system (ECM, ignition coils, transistor pack). It was starting fine the previous weekend.

Edit: it's supposed to be 75°F tomorrow. I'll pull the flywheel inspection plate and look at it (IIRC, my inspection plate was fucked up a bit when the last tranny grenaded).

[Blackcrow64]

Originally Posted by Mikelb

Yeah, I started the car once before I put that last mount on (to test and see if the car was running yet). The car shook like a bitch having withdrawals. I put the other prothane in(transmission mount) and it stopped. I had to use a prybar and loosen the mount from the inner fender to get it to line up though.

I'm sure that was quite the unhealthy decision. lol


A bit too anxious I'd have to say.

[Mikelb]

Originally Posted by Blackcrow64

I'm sure that was quite the unhealthy decision. lol


A bit too anxious I'd have to say.

That's how the last trans was run for over a month... without that mount. The car had no mounts (rubber was gone) when I bought it... I put 3 in, but had to wait on the guy at the shop to get me the last one. He got it to me, and the transmission was destroyed afterwards. The car was only run for about 10 seconds without it, and not driven.

I needed to test the ECU and ignition and timing, etc...I also didn't have the bolts for the new trans, the old one had been molested and had freakin' huge bolts... the new one was a 1 car trans, and had the original bolt holes. I had to go to Advance and pray that I could figure out the right size... I was able to thread match and guess the right size, but I didn't have them when I first got it running.

Edit: I forgot to mention that the trans was supported by a jack when I didn't have that mount in

[Mikelb]

Damn guys, I got some help and with the collaboration of some guys on tuners, we have come to a conclusion.

This is apparently not a new problem, as it has been going on for some years now. In '04, some guys on Tuners were going to start a class action suit, naming ACT as the guilty party. The claims were all very similar. The disks were popping springs, destroying clutches and transmissions, forks, pivots, etc. After some testing by consumers and ACT, everyone came to the conclusion that the problem was an improperly installed clutch. Not that the clutch was put in wrong, but the fact that there were pins missing; the pins are in the engine block and align the bellhousing to the engine. These pins prevent the bellhousing from twisting (a few degrees) under torque.

Edit: I forgot to mention, this doesn't apply to ACT only, just most of the people who made the claim originally running ACT's. There were eventually other clutches brought into the ordeal.

Originally Posted by dsmtuners

Ok now I'm going to show a side X-ray shot of the engine-tranny mounting. Again the left is correct and the right is misaligned. The Engine is dark gray, the tranny is light gray, the flywheel is green, the disc is brown, and the plate is yellow. As you can see the input shaft is straight in the left and angled up in the right due to the misalignment.

Can you imagine the stress you are putting on the whole clutch assembly. The clutch disc is the weakest link of the assembly, so it would be the first to fail. There are alot more messy details, but this is the best way to explain it without getting too complicated.
Attached Images

Here's some of what was said on tuners:

Quote:
Originally Posted by laserspeeddemon
Starting the car that way in never a good idea, for one it puts additional load on the starter that it wasn't designed to handle, this doesn't mean that it won't start or push the car, most cases it will. Also you may damaged components of the drive train. Like in this instance.

I realize it is additional load on the starter, though IMHO it shouldn't do anymore damage to the vehicle than launching it once. This whole drivetrain was new. (Well, transmission was used, but my old one was replaced with this one)

Quote:
A worn input shaft is possible if it was one transmission. But the likelihood of it happening to more then one transmissions suggest that it is something else.
The old transmission was completely fine. The internals and shaft are ok, the bellhousing was destroyed because of a throwout bearing failure(clutch fork and pivot were broken as well).

Quote:
Fully bleed the system. There is a trick I came up with to insure that the old fluid was completely bleed. Take some food coloring (I used blue, it was easy to identify) and put one drop in it. Mix the fluid so the color is uniform in the resevior. Pump the old fluid from the CSC using a vacuume line (can be bought at any auto parts store by the foot) into a coke bottle, keep bleeding the clutch line until you see the colored fluid come up. You have to keep an eye on the resevior to make sure that it doesn't go dry and end up sucking more air into the line. Replace the transmission and go from there. Also make sure the dowel pins (there actually sleeves, but are called pins) are in the engine block were the two buttom bolts hold the tranny to the engine. I'll see if I can dig up a picture of the dowel pins/sleeves.
That is a good idea. I am definitely going to do a complete bleed. I'm going to try and salvage this transmission, as I have the internals from my old one that are completely fine.

I didn't even think about the dowel pins. I know a little about these transmissions, as I rebuilt the one in my Stealth (F5m33 )

I appreciate the help, I probably won't get a chance to work on the car until tomorrow. I'm going to attempt to get it onto the ramps tonight, but it's 48°F now and raining.

Quote:
Originally Posted by laserspeeddemon
Nice weather.

I found the old pics.

Here is my wifes old eclipse (93 GS with 90 turbo motor in it)


Here is my 90 talon


Dude, you are a f'in lifesaver. I think I just found the problem. I'm 99% certain there are no pins on my motor. And if I'm not mistaken, the front hole(to the right of the 2nd pic) broke off the block when the old transmission grenaded.

Laser also referred me to a previous thread, where ACT and himself tested the theory of the dowel pins. Here's the conclusion to that thread.

ACT had done their reseach. And I followed up with the same tests and came with the same results. Given I don't have the same resources that ACT does, I still think I did pretty well. I ran the tests on both a 90 FWD and 90 AWD, also I used a stock clutch vs ACT's clutch, and had the pins in and out of both and gave each test group a couple thousand miles before pulling the tranny and checking the clutch. One final note, I reused the clutch or PP if it was possible. Those results are as follows:

Stock clutch kit/ FWD/ Dowel pins (pass)
Stock clutch kit/ AWD/ Dowel pins (pass)
Stock clutch kit/ FWD/ no Dowel pins(pass)
Stock clutch kit/ AWD/ no Dowel pins(pass)

ACT Clutch kit/ FWD/ Dowel Pins (pass)
ACT Clutch kit/ AWD/ Dowel Pins (pass)
ACT Clutch kit/ FWD/ no Dowel Pins (failed)
ACT Clutch kit/ AWD/ no Dowel Pins (failed)

[Blackcrow64]

Well thats interesting... Although it shouldn't do that anyways if it's all bolted up properly still...

[Mikelb]

Originally Posted by Blackcrow64

Well thats interesting... Although it shouldn't do that anyways if it's all bolted up properly still...

ask the hundreds/thousands of people who didn't use the dowel pins...

A few of us have had our blocks screwed up when the dowel pin bracket snapped off. That's why I have to scrap the block