Swap Engine or Buy New Car?

[skate1968]

Should i be saving for an engine swap? Or should I be saving for a new car? Would a swap be cost efficient for prolonging the life of my daily driver? Or would it be smarter for me to look for another car with an engine already in it? I have very little mechanical skill and I'm NOT interested in racing. But eventually I'd like to have a little more than 92 horsepower. So i'm wondering if i should get a D16 and keep the 5 speed trans that i just got.

If i decide on a future swap i can start immediately shopping around for an new engine, ECU, bigger exhaust, (any wiring kit that's needed) do some cosmetic work on my exterior, floor carpets, etc. Otherwise i won't waste my time.

Right now i have a 91 civic DX with a stock D15-- no rust, good stock transmission. It's burns oil from having worn rings -- blowby (already played with 'Restore' and all that stuff). So I top it off and I get where I'm going as I've done for years. Modifying my tired old engine would, of course, be a waste.

I know a wonderful trustworthy mechanic who swapped in a transmission for me for real cheap. But I was disappointed that he advised me to get a new car instead of a swap. (Otherwise I'd have no problem paying him to do the work.)

Option 1

A reputable JDM shop gave me the following estimated prices for swaps, all parts and labor included.

Another stock D15 $1300

New 1.6 dual point 1800 dollars
- engine more expensive
- needs new ECU

New 1.6 with multipoint 2000 dollars
Multipoint is more wiring work
- engine more expensive
- needs new ECU

(my sincere apologies to the owners for any inaccuracies in the above)
http://jdmexchange.com/

Advantage: These guys obviously know what they're doing and I trust that my car wouldn't have any subsequent problems from the swap -- i would trust them to be capable of standing behind their work.
Disadvantage: Maybe a little pricey. (but maybe very well worth the money. I don't know.)

I see that there is a ton of technical information available for those wanting their EFs to go quicker.



Option 2 Guy at the Broad Street car wash

"Do it yourself! You don't even need to rent a crane. Just throw a rope over a tree limb. Or get a couple buddies to help you lift it up and drop it in-- that's a light engine."

I admire this guy's ambition. But I have absolutely no confidence in his technical ability. And I'm merely posting this for some comedic value.


Option 3
Ask the young mechanic to do it on the weekend. I know a young-- 24ish-- guy who's also got an EF and he seems know his stuff. He's currently going to tech school for auto repair.

If this guy can't use his friend's shop. I can rent a crane and we can do it in my Aunt's garage. I would gladly be his assistant and hand him tools as needed, etc. I'd be his gopher since i got no tech skill.

Advantage: Cheaper
Disadvantage: What if there's a problem? Will he fix it? Can he fix it? When will he get to it? Where will he fix it?


Variation 3 B
Get the reputable shop to put in a healthy jdm d15 for $1300. Then later, when convenient, hunt for deals. Meaning find some cheap way of getting a multipoint swap, cold air intake and a 2/2.25/2.5 exhaust.


Option 4
Just save money for a new car

Thanks to anyone who's still reading this longwinded post.

[turtlecrxsi]

NONONONONONO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go with option 3. Listen, you just put in a tranny. Save your money from getting good fuel economy and then get a d16a6 from somebody selling shit in the classifieds. Also, get a new stock clutch for like $100 and get any machine shop to resurface your existing flywheel or by a brand new hefty one for $90. Total for used d16a6 long block with ecu and rewired mpfi engine bay harness, new clutch and flywheel and new gaskets, belts and waterpump should run way less than any of those quotes you gave.

If you really love your car then keep it. There is no need to spend outrageous amounts of money to put a sohc 1.6L engine in your car and have it run right. These cars are so easy to work on that even I could do it and I am by no means a mechanic.

But if you want to just dump your car and buy something else that is entirely up to you.

[Tony]

Im with Turtle there, pick up a d16a6 someone is selling and swap it in. For just about any swap you want to do to get over the stock 92 hp, you need to do the MPFI swap, which isn't really that hard. And with the a6, thats gonna be the extent of your wiring, everything else should just drop right in without a hitch.

[skate1968]

Thanks very much to both Turtle and Tony,

Actually I really do like my car and that's why trying to do this the smart way.

It's really confuses me that non-honda people seem to think that swaps are extremely difficult and time consuming. While people on Honda forums make them sound relatively easy.

Someone else said that they weren't thrilled with jdm exchange, the place that gave me the quotes.

Now i should get back to work so i can make some money.

[amy@af]

an a6 or sohc zc (jap version of a6) will run you $800 from an engine source, it will have the approx 30,000-40,000mi. Japan Engine Inc 866-532-7878

if you're going to have the guy who's going to school to be an auto tech, i would ask if he's done a MPFI conversion before...the wiring part of it. that is the only part that is not just drop in, bolt in. i've seen some jack@sses royally mess up on that part. some people just shouldn't be playing with wires.

you're best option is to let a shop do it for $1300. you'll get peace of mind it was done correctly

[skate1968]

Thanks Lady,

That's exactly what i want to know. What risks are involved.

I'm thinking if the wiring might be challenging for this tech student maybe I'll buy a wiring kit form rywire? Will that make it 'fool proof'?

Originally Posted by LadyNRedSi

you're best option is to let a shop do it for $1300. you'll get peace of mind it was done correctly

I'm certainly willing to pay a little more for peace of mind.

But $1300 was the cost they quoted for a dual point D15. A multipoint D16 was 2,000. Based on what i've read here and elsewhere. I need to find a better shop.

Is that number you gave me the 'Japanese Engines' of Patterson NJ? That's where i got my trans from. It was only 150 and i'm really happy with it.

[CRXperiment]

Originally Posted by skate1968

I'm thinking if the wiring might be challenging for this tech student maybe I'll buy a wiring kit form rywire? Will that make it 'fool proof'?

Like it has been recommended to you, get either a d16a6 or a sohc zc. These motors are both obd-0, but you will need to convert to mpfi and that requires some wiring work. You can do rywire but that just more dough versus doing it yourself. You can pick up both motors for cheap so no worries there, plus swapping is cake.
Have you tried running your current D15 on thicker weight oil? You should pour in some 20w-50 and run that sucker till it dies. I know a lot of people will dissagree but you will only see like a 10 hp difference with an A6.

[skate1968]

CRX, Thanks for responding.

I just got a bad valve cover gastket fixed. But unfortunately i'm still using oil.

Originally Posted by CRXperiment

Have you tried running your current D15 on thicker weight oil? You should pour in some 20w-50 and run that sucker till it dies.

I won't be one to disagree with you. I blended 1 qt 20W50 with 3 Wallyworld 5W-40s for the winter. I go thicker in the summer. (i've use motor honey, tried restore, etc.) The car today, feels as good as the day i bought it 7 years ago.

And if i gave it to my grandmom, who doesn't redline in every gear, she'd burn much less oil than my impatient ass.

My mind is turned to mush (from work) going to bed.

Thanks again to all for the advice.

[turtlecrxsi]

I'm sorry but spending 1300 for a a6 swap is rediculous. And only a shop owner would recommend doing that in a 17 year old car.

The mpfi wiring is simple and the instructions are found on Lady's site... unless the site is down or it has been removed. Either way, if you are having second thoughts about your tech friend doing the swap because of wiring then contact bambam89lx and he can hook you up. He is also located in the Ct area and has done a lot of work for dude's in NJ and the tri-state area. He makes harnesses. Although, he is in the Navy so who knows if he's actually around.

Take it from me, I had my blown motor swapped out by a local Honda redneck shop guy and he charged me about 1300 for a new engine swapped in with a new waterpump, belts, etc. and swapped over my parts. Basically, I didn't want to deal with it. Then I joined AF and realized how damn stupid I was for spending that kind of money. Anyway, just trying to help you out.

[amy@af]

Originally Posted by turtlecrxsi

I'm sorry but spending 1300 for a a6 swap is rediculous. And only a shop owner would recommend doing that in a 17 year old car.

The mpfi wiring is simple and the instructions are found on Lady's site... unless the site is down or it has been removed. Either way, if you are having second thoughts about your tech friend doing the swap because of wiring then contact bambam89lx and he can hook you up. He is also located in the Ct area and has done a lot of work for dude's in NJ and the tri-state area. He makes harnesses. Although, he is in the Navy so who knows if he's actually around.

i'm sorry but only a non shop owner would have zero clue what engines are going for.

the a6 or sohc zc are going for $600-800 + $500 labor = $1100-1300

now if you think investing $1300 for a really low mile engine into your 17yr old car verses spending $1300+ to buy another car is ridicilous....well, that's your personal opinion.


as for where the Jap Engine Inc is located, shoot I don't know off hand. i do know i order an engine and it's literally here the very next day. which is crazy because i have ordered at 4:45pm and it still arrived the next day.

the MPFI is on www.DownToGround.net but i'm not exactly sure where. 90civicrider made me the new site so i'll have to look up where it was moved to. i have known many people to follow those instructions and have zero problems. i have also recieved MANY e-mails over the years saying HELP! i messed up somewhere and don't know where? like i said before, some people just shouldn't be messing with wires. can your guy do it? i don't know...ask him some questions and see how comfortable he is with rewiring.

if bambam89lx is in your area, by all means get ahold of that guy! i can tell you right now he can handle MPFI wiring, no questions asked.




EDIT: i found the MPFI link: http://www.downtoground.net/knowledgebase/?p=43

[turtlecrxsi]

Just because I don't own an auto shop doesn't mean I don't have common sense. You want to put a better engine in your old car. Put whatever engine you want into it... GL

[Tony]

I think you just forgot about the labor Turtle, because the price she shows for the motor is about right, then having someone install it would probably be around there, I don't know for sure, I don't own a shop and I don't let shops work on my car.

The hardest part on this swap is going to be the MPFI conversion, and its not really that complicated if you have an idea on wiring, just take your time on it. Its usually when people rush when things go wrong.

I just got through pulling 2 motors out of 2 EG civics and installing one this weekend, and was really simple. The hardest part I had was finding hook points to lift the motor out and put it in level.

[skate1968]

Thanks very much to everyone who posted here. Lady and Turtle have both made very valid arguments.

People have informed me here and elsewhere that Rywire makes a kit for multipoint. It sounds like if i bought this kit and gave it to the kid it would largely eliminate the possibility of him screwing up the MPFI wiring. The price of the kit would be like a little insurance for me.

[Tony]

Rywire makes a kit and so does BamBam, I just don't know if he is in right now.

[amy@af]

i would go bambam. rywire left a bad taste in my mouth when 1 of their people signed up for here, fished for threads with wiring questions, and left replies saying if you buy their stuff, free tech support.

how are you going to go into a free forum and post about if you buy my stuff i'll help you that is treading really close to breaking the spam rules and distasteful if you ask me.

bambam has been helping people around here for years for free. if your on the east coast, check him out!