1991 Lumina APV only starts with ether

[Dan Kosek]

But then it runs fine. I allready changed the fuel pump, both injectors, and a diaphram in the TBI housing. No change. Any ideas?

[jdl]

Did you check for codes? When you turn the key to on, can you hear the pump run for a couple of seconds? Is there any fuel pressure?

When you crank the engine, do the injectors pulse? You can use a noid lite on the injector plug. Sometimes you can use a long piece of fuel injector hose, put one end to the injector and the other end to your ear, have a helper crank the engine, listen for a click.

If the injectors won't pulse and other than the initial prime, the pump won't run, then I would look for an rpm signal.

[Dan Kosek]

I have not checked for a code but ses light is not on . I can hear the pump run but the injectors dont spray upon cranking , only after I spray in the ether and the engine starts does the injectors start spraying. I can also hear the pump run after I turn off the ign. I also have not checked fuel pressure , but the car runs fine down the highway , sometimes it will stall sitting at idle or when shifting from park to drive, and sometimes it will restart wo/ether but most times it needs a shot of ether to restart.

[LMP]

SO...fuel pump provides the initial 2 sec burst at KEY ON, and injectors do not fire during cranking....but from what you say, I do not know if they do fire during the initial fuel pump primer burst....do they?

You should check also for the signal from the starter solenoid to the ECM : purple/white 806 at connector C9 on diagram 8A-20-1. SIgnal comes through fusible link B in picture www.avigex.ca/xport/fusiblelinkh.jpg
www.avigex.ca/xport/ignition31.jpg
www.avigex.ca/xport/fuelcontrol31.jpg
If the fuel pump had not given the initial primer burst, I'd have thought the fuel pump relay was dead..; once the engine is started, the fuel pump is maintained alive by the oil pressure switch and does not need the relay.
.... the crank position sensor or related ignitor/ignition module is a potential culprit...but then you would have spark problem too....

[BlazinK30]

My 92 died and I happened to have some either with me. I sprayed it in the injection and it would start fine but not stay running. A few days later it would not start with either, checked and no spark and no injector pulse. Turns out it was the control moduale in the distributor. Try checking that maybe.

[Dan Kosek]

I changed the fuel pump relay , $12 and it starts fine now. Thanks for the help.

[Dan Kosek]

I thought my problem was solved , but the car is back to starting with ether most of the time. It also stalled at a light but started right back up. So I put a new ecm in it today and it started right up but then it stalled when I parked at the gas pump. It started right back up and I drove it 25 miles down the highway, but when I come to a stop it will shudder and stall unless I put it in nuetral then it takes off just fine when I pulled in my driveway it ran fine and I shut it off with the key???

[LMP]

Originally Posted by Dan Kosek

... I put a new ecm in it today ...???

...well....I'd be interested in investigating the ignition module or the crank position sensor. ECM influence is quite distant from ignition on this model.
www.avigex.ca/xport/ignition31.jpg
www.avigex.ca/xport/ckps31.jpg

[Dan Kosek]

Maybee I used the wrong term , but what I changed today was the flat black module in the distributor. Its called ign.mod. in the schematic you sent me. Should I now turn to the crank pos. sensor?

[LMP]

OK what you changed www.avigex.ca/xport/ignitionmodule31.gif is logical....yes indeed, in same situation, I'd go for the crank position sensor or/and ignition pickup. www.avigex.ca/xport/ignitionpickup31.jpg
That really looks like an intermittent ignition problem. WHen it refuses to start, I'D pull a plug and insert a spare plug, let it rest on block then start to verify for spark....car needs fuel and spark; one is missing.....
At that age, all those parts become rather "mandatory maintenance items". I would not risk a long trip with the originals. Last summer I changed them all before a long trek and felt much safer, given the occurrence of mishaps of that nature constantly reported for cars that age.

..thinking it over and reading back from your first post......are you sure all the contacts to the fuel pump relay are OK?...in fact, if it starts with ether, this tends to prove it HAS spark, but no fuel..unless ether ignites more easily with poor spark than gas....I'd check for pressure at the injectors when it refuses to fire up...maybe the contacts were shaken by replacing the relay and worked for a time...I'd like you take special attention to listen to the pump at KEY ON....quite puzzling...maybe another odd problem...

[Dan Kosek]

I watched the injectors today while my son started the car and it did spray fuel upon cranking and it started right up. Also just before I changed the ign. mod. it stalled at a light and started right back up again but as soon as I put it in drive it just died, I repeated that about 8 times before I pushed it off the road. About 15 min. later it started right up I drove it right to the parts store and put in the ign. mod. It had never done that stalling when put in gear before or since.

[Dan Kosek]

Okay this thing wont start at all now and I checked it for spark and it has none. I guess my next move is the crank pos. sensor. Where is it located? It looks like a dealer only item , but I did see it online for about $60.

[LMP]

...I thought this problem was solved since you had the ignition module changed already. THis one is the culprit im most cases.
WIth the "old style" distributor type 3.1, the "crank position sensor" is the ignition pickup coil www.avigex.ca/xport/ignitionpickup31.jpg ...and this component is rather sturdy, as well as the ignition coil itself.
THe separate crank position sensor mentioned by error at the beginning is used with electronic distributor type.

[jimv1125]

I have a 94 3.1 has the same problem every two to four months i change the fuel filter and it runs fine easy fix over looked a lot

[ESP6]

Has anyone looked into the OPS? If the van runs, the fuel pump uses the fuel pump relay on start up then switches over the engine oil pressure to run the fuel pump. It may be bad... I've had to replace the oil pressure switch a few times.. Good luck... It may or may not be the problem in you case.