Econoline E150 Brake Rotors

[leroge]

My 2001 E150 XLT has 96K mostly highway driven miles. It is used mostly for travel to and frm my second home in Michigan. I'm still on the ORIGINAL tires which I rotate frequently.

At 65K ( first brake job! ) I was informed I needed new rotors since they couldn't be 'turned' below 'spec'. The repair shop reasoning was that 'these newer vehicle rotors are less in dimension than older ones'.

At 78K one rotor had to be 'turned' to eliminate a 'pull' to the right.

At 92K, I started feeling a 'pulsing' as I engaged the brake pedal - a decreasing 'pulse' as I came to a stop.

At 95K, I took the vehicle in for servicing and was advise that my right rotor was 'warped' and the cause of the pulsing and that, again, I need new rotors because turning them would bring them to 4/1000 inch below spec - 'a dangerous condition and places the repair shop liable for any subsequent failure' so I was told. I was also told that my rear drum pads still have 20K miles of life - ORIGINAL pads!! )

Well, $400 and several days later my wheels are red hot after a drive of 10 or so miles. I took off the wheels and noticed slight friction ( brake pad against rotor ) at one point in the rotation. The other wheel was showing slight friction over the entire rotation. In a discussion with the repair shop, I was led to believe that, perhaps, I have a 'bad' caliper that may need to be replaced. As you might suspect, my response was 'I paid to have the master cylinder, brake calipers, brake lines, hoses and other brake hardware inspected - now your telling me there is something likely wrong with the calipers????' C'mon!

After a heated discussion with the service shop owner, he refused to resolve the problem. I need some advice...

1 - Are these repair shops really constrained in resurfacing rotors to the extent that 4/1000 of an inch below 'spec' is an issue. Having been, I believe duped twice now, I have begun to believe this 'FUD selling' - fear, uncertainty and doubt.

2 - I understand how a 'tight caliper' could cause friction over the entire wheel rotation but could a caliper cause wheel friction at only one point in the wheel rotation?

3 - I am always suspicious about the 'insurance requirement' that a patron not be allowed in the shop to view work in progress. Are there such constraints.

4 - Anything that can be done to equalize the braking between front and rear brakes? 120K miles on original rear drum pads tells me they really aren't contributing to braking!

5 - How should I deal with a repair shop who refused to provide warranty work.

You advice would be appreciated.

[mustangmike351c]

when it was pulling to the right you more than likely need a caliper on the left at that time. rotors will cause a pulsation but not a pull. the rotor its self will have a discard spec on it if they couldnt see it because of rust they should have an online service were they could look it up. they should have to take care of any work they done or said they did. any time you do front brakes the rears should be adjusted.

[ModMech]

Originally Posted by leroge

After a heated discussion with the service shop owner, he refused to resolve the problem. I need some advice...

1 - Are these repair shops really constrained in resurfacing rotors to the extent that 4/1000 of an inch below 'spec' is an issue. Having been, I believe duped twice now, I have begun to believe this 'FUD selling' - fear, uncertainty and doubt.

No. There is a "Minimum Machining Thickness" cast into the rotor, this is the MINIMUM thickness that the rotor can be machined TO, and not below. Here os the rub, MOST shops machine rotors at each brake job - why? I have NO CLUE other than to sell more rotors! When they machine rotors, let's say the rotor "as is" is 1.345", and the minimum "allowable" thickness is 1.200", they machine it to 1.202" when they do the brake job. This GARANTEES that you will need a new rotor on your next visit. Are you MAD yet? If not, read on...

2 - I understand how a 'tight caliper' could cause friction over the entire wheel rotation but could a caliper cause wheel friction at only one point in the wheel rotation?

No. This can only be due to a defect in the ROTOR. Either the rotor is actually warped, or the surfaces are not parallel - these conditons are not the same thing, but are commonly confused by (idiot) service personnel. A warped rotor CANNOT ever be "trued up", once warped, it will ALWAYS be warped. Warping is a condition where the friction surfaces are not exactly parallel to the rotor's centerline. A rotor that has wear surfaces that are not parallel to EACH OTHER is not necessarily warped. It is slmost impossible to tell these two conditions apart, even with very expensive tools and well trained technicians.

3 - I am always suspicious about the 'insurance requirement' that a patron not be allowed in the shop to view work in progress. Are there such constraints.

Most shops do have "shop keepers" insurance, but their carriers DO NOT dictate repair practices, they are far more concerned with Worker's Comp issues, and that is often a different carrier.

4 - Anything that can be done to equalize the braking between front and rear brakes? 120K miles on original rear drum pads tells me they really aren't contributing to braking!

As I recall, all Ford vans, and most (if not all) pickups have a read load balancing valve in them, the rear brakes are wearing so little because of the low loading of the rear axle. This is to prevent the rear brakes from locking up and causing loss of vehicle control. I know it has ABS, but that's different. However, it is very important that the rear brake adjustment be checked periodically for those with rear drum brakes (and I am sure your van does). This is automatic with the use of the parking brake, and moderate or harder braking in REVERSE, neither of which normal people do.

5 - How should I deal with a repair shop who refused to provide warranty work.

You advice would be appreciated.

The BEST thing to do would be to take it to a DEALER, let then fix it, then send repair shop #1 the bill. If they refuse to pay it, spend $30 and file in small claims. Small claims judges FAVOR the consumer, and you will most likely get all you money + filing fees w/o ever stepping foot into court.

[leroge]

Originally Posted by ModMech

No. There is a "Minimum Machining Thickness" cast into the rotor, this is the MINIMUM thickness that the rotor can be machined TO, and not below. Here os the rub, MOST shops machine rotors at each brake job - why? I have NO CLUE other than to sell more rotors! When they machine rotors, let's say the rotor "as is" is 1.345", and the minimum "allowable" thickness is 1.200", they machine it to 1.202" when they do the brake job. This GARANTEES that you will need a new rotor on your next visit. Are you MAD yet? If not, read on...

No. This can only be due to a defect in the ROTOR. Either the rotor is actually warped, or the surfaces are not parallel - these conditons are not the same thing, but are commonly confused by (idiot) service personnel. A warped rotor CANNOT ever be "trued up", once warped, it will ALWAYS be warped. Warping is a condition where the friction surfaces are not exactly parallel to the rotor's centerline. A rotor that has wear surfaces that are not parallel to EACH OTHER is not necessarily warped. It is slmost impossible to tell these two conditions apart, even with very expensive tools and well trained technicians.



Most shops do have "shop keepers" insurance, but their carriers DO NOT dictate repair practices, they are far more concerned with Worker's Comp issues, and that is often a different carrier.



As I recall, all Ford vans, and most (if not all) pickups have a read load balancing valve in them, the rear brakes are wearing so little because of the low loading of the rear axle. This is to prevent the rear brakes from locking up and causing loss of vehicle control. I know it has ABS, but that's different. However, it is very important that the rear brake adjustment be checked periodically for those with rear drum brakes (and I am sure your van does). This is automatic with the use of the parking brake, and moderate or harder braking in REVERSE, neither of which normal people do.



The BEST thing to do would be to take it to a DEALER, let then fix it, then send repair shop #1 the bill. If they refuse to pay it, spend $30 and file in small claims. Small claims judges FAVOR the consumer, and you will most likely get all you money + filing fees w/o ever stepping foot into court.

ModMech...thanks much for the response regarding the rotors on my Econoline E150. Tell me, am I the only one experiencing r noticing a significant void in repair shop mechanical skills? I am frustrated as all hell!!!!

After the experience with the first shop which replaced my rotors and pads ( and who subsequently refused warranty service ), I took it to a Midas shop who diagnosed the problem as caliper related. In diagnosing the problem, I was advised that the prior shop didn't adjust ( as I had paid for ) the rear brakes - they weren't providing any braking power! Well, another $370 for new front calipers I'm off to Michigan for the weekend!

As I'm traveling on the highway I start smelling something awful. Pulling off the roadway, I noticed my rear right wheel well was smoking and the wheel itself was as hot as hell!!!! In contacting the Midas shop the response was - 'No problem, bring it back and we'll see what the problem is'. This of course is the typical response to a screwup. Slowly I travel back the ten miles to Midas who now discovers that they 'over adjusted' the rear right wheel!!!

ModMech, have you ever seen a grown man cry? Can I be the only one experience this kind of lack of skill and personal commitment to one's workmanship? Are the 'gods' not looking favorably upon me? I guess the 'drive checkout' for both these shops was meaningless? The only consolation I received was two free oil change certificates from Midas.

Well, I just sent off a complaint to the Illinois Attorney General's office and noticed my credit card company that payment to the first shop not be made - let them come after me! I'll be more than happy to get in front of a judge in the future to discuss this experience!

LeRoge'

PS: Almost forgot - Midas believes I need both a new solinoid AND starter given the problem I am having with starting the vehicle ( note an Automotiveforums thread - Econoline Starter Problem - Electrical? ). $400!

[droddy]

l, you are not the only one to have problems with brakes , but they can be fixed. I'll let you know a little about my background first. I was a counter person at a midas shop in the late 80's and i was an ASE certified mechanic. I haved moved on to another field since 91. A few things I can remember from those days about brake problems on Fords. As the E150 is a pretty heavy vehicle I think you will maybe expect to get 35-50K off of a front set of pads. I have 197000 on the original rear shoes of my van. I have adjusted the rears twice. The fronts take so much abuse, so they will have more trouble. My van has been through 2 set of rotors and i have a little shake on the 3rd set. I do my own work, so the first time I went to turn my rotors they were already below specs. I think the new ones were about $38 each. The brake pads are so hard now because they are not made out of asbestos anymore. This means that the rotor is actually squeezed thinner just by use.
Try changing the front brakes on your own, it is really pretty easy.Probably takes about an hour. And save plenty of cash.
Cars have several problems that can cause warpage. Quick change in temperature(going through water). Also the caliper piston can swell and cause the caliper to drag excessively on the rotor. Also we used to see the inside of the hoses that go to the front brakes crack apart. this lets fluid pressure go to the caliper but then get trapped. This causes dragging , heat and warping.
My suggestion if you want to get rid of the problem and you don't want to do it yourself.
Go buy the following at your auto parts store and find a shop that wants to do the labor for you.
a set of rotors
Rotor seals
Brake pads
2 calipers
2 hoses
this will probably run $250 (guess)
This is what I am going to do this time around, hope it solves both our problems!!
If you want to try it yourself I think about.com has a DIY for brakes