2 Questions, which of 2 comp sets should I run, and one about true RMS multimeters

[eckoman_pdx]

Alright, I have a few different sets of speakers and wanted to know which you guys think I should run in the front.

I'll tell you the whole set-up so you get and idea. First the car is lined with 6 bulk packs of dynamat extreme (216 sq ft) and another 120 sq ft of super insulator (accoustic/thermal/vapor barrier). For a headunit I have in right now a older Premier DEH-P630 (4 volt preouts x 3), though I have a Kenwood 717DVD (5 volt preouts x3) I might put in soon. I am running a 15.0:1 Phoenix Gold Monoblock amp powering 2 Z-Rated 12" subs in a custom built box for the subs. For the 4 channel amp I am running a 8.0:4 Phoenix Gold amp (which just fried and they are gonna fix it for me next week). Now for the speakers....in the rear I am running 6.5" Phoenix Gold speakers (true 6.5", so they are what the industry called 6.75-7" oversized speakers. In the front I am running Infinity reference 6002i coaxle speakers.

I've had 2 sets of components for awhile, but didn't feel like installing them. I figured with everything else going on, now was a good time to swap them if I wanted to. The compenent sets are 1) 5.25" Phoenix Gold Xenon X5.0 Components. These were PG's top of the line speaker when they were on the market. They have are rated at a pretty high 125 watts rms 4 ohm. the other set...2) 6.75"" (oversized industry standard 6.75-7") Z-Rated ZR-6.5 Componentscomponents. The are around 70-75 watts rms, but PG told me they were a little underrated. Both sets have silk dome tweeters. These are PG's mid-line speaker.

Below are some specs on both comp sets and a link to car domain where they give some more info (not sold anymore but the infos there)

XENON 5.0
----------------------------
http://www.cardomain.com/item/PHOX50

• 5.25 convertible speaker set
• Cast Aluminum basket
• 25mm silk dome tweeter
• 24dB per octave passive crossover network
• 5x7, 6x9, and 6.0 mounting adaptor
• 60-22,000 Hz
• Sensitivity 86.8 dB (1W/1M)
• 2.5" High Temperature Voice Coil

150/300W (cont./max)




ZR 6.5 COMP
----------------------------
http://www.cardomain.com/item/PHOZR65COMP

• 6.5 inch (165mm) 2-way comp system
• 25mm silk dome tweeter
• External 24dB/octave acoustic crossover
• Frequency response: 65Hz-20kHz
• Sensitivity: 90dB (1W/1M)

70/150W (RMS/PEAK)


I realize the Xenon's were suppose to be better, but they are only 5.25." The mid grade Z-Rated ones are a lot bigger (7" speaker sized), with a true 6.5" cone. I didn't know if the trade down in size from 7" to 5.25" would be worth it, even though the 7" set is mid grade and the 5.25" set top of the line...If I had the Xenon's in 6.5" (7" sized) I'd run those...but I only have them in 5.25" sized. Then there's the bottom of the line infinity reference 6002i coaxles, lol...

So, what set would guys run out of all this? The reason compenents never went in before (besides the fact I didn't feel like installing them) was I couldn't decided which set to put in. Thanks for the input.

Also, one last unrelated question...the multimeters that say "true RMS multimeter," can they actually read and display the RMS voltage? I am sick of tuning gains with a test tone and regular multimeter. If the "true rms" ones can actaully decent and display rms voltage, etc...I will shell out the $$ for good true rms one so I can tune to music and pull the rms wattage/voltage off the mutlimeter.

Thanks for the help. I really do apperiacte it.

[PaulD]

I believe the fluke DMM's are true RMS. What would I do with your available equipment ..... I would do a 4 way active setup. Crossover the sub around 65-70 Hz, put the 6 1/2 in the doors and use them as a midbass driver, run them 70-75Hz to like 250-400Hz. Then install the 5 1/4" and tweeter in the kickpanels. If you compete, you may need to put the second set of tweeters up on the dash or in the A-pillars, crossed in at like 8-10Khz.

[bjboertje]

^that would be ideal. but if you can only use one of the sets, i would go with the xenon 5.0.

[sr20de4evr]

Originally Posted by eckoman_pdx

Also, one last unrelated question...the multimeters that say "true RMS multimeter," can they actually read and display the RMS voltage? I am sick of tuning gains with a test tone and regular multimeter. If the "true rms" ones can actaully decent and display rms voltage, etc...I will shell out the $$ for good true rms one so I can tune to music and pull the rms wattage/voltage off the mutlimeter.

?

A true rms multimeter wouldn't help you in that regard, you still need to use test tones.

[eckoman_pdx]

Paul, I did some checking and Fluke does make several True-RMS DMM's, including one here on clearence for like $109, so I might buy it. So if I did a 4 way active set-up I'd have the 2 speakers in the rear and then 4 in the front (5 1/4 in kicks and 6.5 in doors)? How would I wire that up to the amp, since it's a 4 channel amp. Am I understanding you would use both componet sets, the 5.25 in kicks and the 6.5's in the doors (so 2 sets of tweets, 1 set of 5.25 and i set of 6.5 front and 1 set 6.5 in the rear?)Sorry I am confused, I have been up for like 36 hours now, I was working on the car all last night and wasn't able to get any slep during the day, so my mind is a little confused right now. For the cross overs on that set-up, I am guessing I need something other than the amp, like an audiocontrol?

I might just install a set on comps in the doors now while I am figuring this out (which it sounds like you'd guys would go with the x5.0's while I figure this all out, etc in the meantime? I Do like the sound of this set-up if I can just figure it out and figure out what to do.

Again, sorry if I didn't make sense right now, I'm really tired, LOL.

Thanks for all the input and advice so far.

[PaulD]

I was saying to put JUST the 6 1/2" speakers in the doors, and then the 5 1/4 mid and a tweeter in the kick panel pods. You will most likely need more amp channels than you have to do this.

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by PaulD

I was saying to put JUST the 6 1/2" speakers in the doors, and then the 5 1/4 mid and a tweeter in the kick panel pods. You will most likely need more amp channels than you have to do this.

You were sayiny use the 6.5" as the midbass in the doors and the 5.25" and tweeters in the kicks, a 3 way set-up versus a 2 way standard comp set-up, right? I just don't know how to wire it, since the xenon crossover is for 1 woofer and tweeter. If I had a 3rd amp I suppose I could use bass blockers or audiocontrol to cross over the 6.5" to onloy the mid-bass freq. My amp is 75 rms * 4 channels, so your are right, I'd need a second amp. I found a 4.0:2 2 channel amp today on clearence for really cheap so I drove to the shop and bought it. 75 rms * 2. It's the 2 channel verison of my 4 channel. So I have the 2nd amp to run the set-up now.

Would you recommend using the second set of tweeters in the a-pillars or door along with the 6.5" midbass like u metioned in the other post?

What do you mean buy Active 4 way? I assume 4 way is 2 drivers and 2 tweets, versus a 3 way active which would be the 6.5, 5.25 and the tweet. Always what does active mean (not to sound dumb). PG used to hav a Ti Elite 3 way set-up (TITANIUM 951 COMP ELITE), a 9" midbass and 5.25" driver and a tweet. They said it was active between the 5 mid and 9 mid, though I don't know what that means. Someone this morning suggested I try to figure out what they did or mb quart does thier active 3 way set-ups and reverse engineer something like that which could work for me.

http://www.phoenixgold.com/2004/tita...espeakers.html

I can see 2 ways to do it, I could run the whole 3 way set-up off the 4 channel and the rears off the 2 channel, and build a passive crossover network. I could use the amp's high or low x-over for 2 of the channels to block out the proper portion of the signal andd use a passive x-over to get the other for the mid-bass.

Or I could run the Xenons (in the kicks) and the rear speakers off the 8.0:4 4 channel, which of course if used to do and hooks up normal as is. Then I could run the 2 midbass 6.5" in the front doors off the 2 channel. I could try to do a passive x-over network again, for the high or low x-over use the amp and for the other passive, or I could say screw it and by an electronic EQ like audiocontrol and hook it up and do it that way.

Which way would you guys recommend hooking up the speakers (which to which amp) and which x-over method?

[PaulD]

active means the crossover is before the amp, passive is when the crossover is between the amp and the speakers. 4 way means there are 4 speakers per channel - each running different frequencies. Don't use speakers in the rear (except subs).

If the Xenons have passive crossovers that came with them, you can run an active 3 way. That would look like the following ..... from the active crossover, there would be 3 outputs. Set the bass to midrange xover freq to like 75 Hz, set the mid to tweet xover freq to like 400 Hz. From the xover outputs, the bass output will go to the bass amp, the midrange output will go to the rear channels of the 75X4 - which will power the two 6 1/2's, the tweeter output on the amp will go to the passive crossover for the xenons - then connect the 5 1/4 and tweet to the passive. OR you could do the crossover the same way and then use the 75x2 for the 6 1/2's, then run the tweet output to the 4 channel as before, but use it's internal crossover and each of the of the four speakers will have it's own amp channel. Probably clear as mud by now ......

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by PaulD

active means the crossover is before the amp, passive is when the crossover is between the amp and the speakers. 4 way means there are 4 speakers per channel - each running different frequencies. Don't use speakers in the rear (except subs).

If the Xenons have passive crossovers that came with them, you can run an active 3 way. That would look like the following ..... from the active crossover, there would be 3 outputs. Set the bass to midrange xover freq to like 75 Hz, set the mid to tweet xover freq to like 400 Hz. From the xover outputs, the bass output will go to the bass amp, the midrange output will go to the rear channels of the 75X4 - which will power the two 6 1/2's, the tweeter output on the amp will go to the passive crossover for the xenons - then connect the 5 1/4 and tweet to the passive. OR you could do the crossover the same way and then use the 75x2 for the 6 1/2's, then run the tweet output to the 4 channel as before, but use it's internal crossover and each of the of the four speakers will have it's own amp channel. Probably clear as mud by now ......

Thanks, I think I understand it now. I'm going to get the true-rms dmm tomarrow, and once the show season ends in a few weeks I'll tear the car apart and start redoing all that fun stuff.

[PaulD]

what orgs are you competing in ?

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by PaulD

what orgs are you competing in ?

Sorry i took me so long to respond. I've been really busy. I've completed in SQ in a few IASCA comps that have come by, stuff like that, nothing big sound comp wise yet. I've done a ton of car shows though. If one of the orgs has an sq thing in conjunction with the show I'll do it. I'd like to get it set up so I can attend more sound comps thoughy, especially since the NCCA (for car shows) judges you based on proper speaker placement, etc. So basically if it's set up right, for IASCA or something like that, you'll get more points (they don't listen to it though). If I set it up right, I can kill to birds with one stone show wiese so to speak.

One question. I'm re-running all the speaker wiring in 12 gauge PG gold level wiring (because I have a ton of it laying around). Anyways, I am going to keep the wiring length the same left to right, so the front left and front right and rear left and rear right wires I'll keep the same length. Do I need to keep the speaker wire the same length to all the speakers, left to right front to back? Or is it okay to pretty much just run the shortest length possible, who cares if they lengths are different?

[PaulD]

doesn't make any difference at all ....... several hundred feet might, but not the typical 3-5 extra feet you would have in a car. The most imporant thing is getting good connections on the speakers and amps.

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by PaulD

doesn't make any difference at all ....... several hundred feet might, but not the typical 3-5 extra feet you would have in a car. The most imporant thing is getting good connections on the speakers and amps.

Alright, thanks. So no need to waste 12 gauge wire and make the speaker wire eqaul length to all speakers. I mean, I figured maybe 5 feet extra max from passenger to drivers side depending on how I ran it, and the I figured 10 feet difference worst case senerio length front to rear if you had rear speakers. I didn't think it would make a difference but I wasn't sure.