NOT the end of my '93 metro...Life after death! RINGS

[DOCTORBILL]

I am starting another thread concerning my '93 Metro - continued from
"That's the end of my '93 Metro..." - this one for the Rings and Cylinders.

I got the head back today...that part is essentially done.

About the ring replacement.....I ordered the rings, the Rod Bearings, the oil pan seal,
(and the Head bolts) from Schuck's today. $110
If you want to pay the "Web Site Price", you have to take a printout of the
site showing that price when you go in to buy the thing.

They have a three-stone cylinder honing tool for $24. Replacement stones are about $8.
I can get the ring compressor there for $12.

Now comes - how to remove the "Ridge" around the top of the cylinder that
is left from ring wear on the cylinder walls?

I cannot push the piston out past that ridge w/o first removing it, can I?
I can just feel the ridge - I don't think it is very thick (but WTF do I know?)

Is removing the Ridge anywhere near as critical as honing? Since the rings
stop at where the ridge starts, it must not be a critical issue....no?

Can I use the honing tool to remove the ridge first - then maybe replace the
stones with new ones....?

NAPA (Hideously high Prices!) wants $65 for the ridge removing tool.
Can I rent such a tool? Can I remove the ridge some way w/o a special tool?

The damned tools (which I will probably never use again) are costing as much
as some of the parts!

A ball honing tool requires the exact size (???) of the cylinder and costs around $40 each at NAPA....
I'll stay with the 3-stone jobbie at Schuck's...!

DoctorBill

PS - I want to thank everyone who has been contributing to these posts.
Your help and explanations are invaluable!
I am sure many people will benefit from reading these things. People like
me who don't know their Butts from a hole in the ground about engines....

[mowfixer]

Sounds like a fun project and one I may be forced to do at some point as my car has 215,000 miles on it now.

I can't answer every question but as for the ridge, you should remove it with a ridge reamer. Perhaps you could rent one for a day.

The danger of forcing the pistons past the ridge is that you could damage or break the ring grooves. I have ssen them break if the ridge is too large.

Let us know how things go as I am waiting for your end results.

[DOCTORBILL]

Tell me about using the Ridge-Reamer fellows!
Never used one or saw one used before....

Sun Rental has one for $11 / 24 hours....They cost 5x that to buy, so I'll rent.

I'm told they scrape the ridge off - yow! That sounds like maybe I could
easily screw this part up.

Can one control how much is scraped as you turn it ? Carbide knives ?

Do you use a drill to turn it or a wrench ?

How is it placed and adjusted - will I get instructions when I rent it or have
to finger it all out by my lonesome ?

How will I know when I've scraped enough ? Don't want to over-do it !

I saw one internet forum message where a guy said he just reamed the ridge
down with a mototool and stone and then hand sanded with emery cloth.

Either way - if any scrapings or grit falls down into the cylinder onto and
into the rings, that will scratch the cylinder wall when I push the pistons up
and out - yes !?

How do you catch the stuff scraped off and keep it away from the piston, etc ?

So, I need some advice on this part....

Once done, is pushing the piston up and out difficult ? Where do you push from ?

Anything I should watch out for or be especially careful of ?

DoctorBill

[mowfixer]

Do a google search for how to use a ridge reamer and you will find some info.

They are turned with a wrench and have a cutter that trims off the ridge as you turn it. It is necessary to check the progress as you go and stop at the point the ridge has been removed.

I have not used one in years but I remember it being a lot of work.

There is a school of thought out there that if you have a large ridge then you obviously have a lot of cylinder wear.

This might indicate that more than a ring job is required. Without measuring the bore diameter in the normal cylinder area with a micrometer you will not know how bad your cylinders are and if a shop rebore might be needed. Of couse that means taking the whole engine out.

Good Luck

[geozukigti]

Yes, metal will fall into the cylinder. Your best bet is to stuff a rag into the cylinder to catch most of it. And take a vacuum to it to get the rest out. The reamer should be driven by a box wrench or a ratchet. Adjust it to the proper size, lock it in, and lift it up to the ridge, and give it a couple spins. Not very hard. And when you lock the bore size in right, there's almost no chance you'll damage the cylinder. Be careful with it, it can scrape up the cylinder walls if not used right. I always have my blocks done at a shop. And yes, if the ridge is really bad, it's oversize pistons and time to bore out the cylinder. Your new rings will never seal properly if it's badly worn.

[pind]

Chances are you won't need a ridge reamer to remove the pistons, there is usually not much of a carbon ridge built up there.
Do Not use a three stone hone, if you are just doing a ring job. 99% of these engines do not require an overbore, merely new rings, bearings, and seals. Use a Ball Hone, available at most tool places, and some auto parts stores. These leave a very fine crosshatch pattern when used properly, without the scoring that can happen when using a three stone hone.
If there is excessive cylinder wear, it is easier to get a machine shop to take the block out to the first oversize, although in the many engines I have done, that was only required once, when the engine had been sitting, and had rusted the cylinder walls.
When honing, be sure to use wd-40 or some other light oil lubricant for the honing process, it also will allow you to see the crosshatch pattern that you are leaving, a little more clearly than otherwise.
When installing new rings, take the time to clean the ring grooves properly, preferably with the proper tool. if the proper tool is not available, use a piece of an old ring, and just lightly scrape the carbon out of the grooves.
These engines are extremely easy to work with in this department, with a re-con like this generally being done entirely in one day.

Good luck with it

[DOCTORBILL]

Thanks for the info prior to this post...!

I went into Schucks this morning to buy a new Thermostat.

Just for the Hell of it, I asked if they rented Ridge-Reamers....They do !

Cheap as Hell, too ! $6 for 48 hours. A local rental place here gets $11/24 hrs.

So I saved money there. Schucks. Who would have guessed?

I bought a stone honer - $23. Schucks doesn't rent them....
Now "pind" says not to use one......

This is interesting.

I asked the Head Service "Boss' some questions and noted that he contradicted
quite a lot of the advice I am getting here on this forum.

I asked him about that - "Ask ten people a question about engines and you'll
get ten different answers....maybe five of those will be correct."

So....any votes on my using this 3-stone honing tool or taking it back and
trying to find a "Ball Hone" I can rent....?

The Ridge-Reamer is quite a heavy little device.

What is curious is the edge that reams looks and feels as dull as my thumbnail.

Should that edge be sharp? I would think so!

DoctorBill

[geozukigti]

I've always had good luck with the stone honing tools. I own one myself. The "bottle brush" hone will give a decent hone, but never a really nice one that the stone hone will give ya. All the bottle brush one does is scratch the hell out of the cylinder randomly in a swirling motion. Be careful with the stone though, it'll start taking out metal REALLY quick if you don't keep moving it up and down.

[DOCTORBILL]

OK....I'll go with the 3-stone Honing Tool I bought.

How long does it take to finish one cylinder's honing?
How can you tell when enough is enough?

How fast do I move up and down with it?

Any electric drill? I have a 600 rpm Black & Decker (Powerful drill) and several
battery jobs that spin much faster (?rpm).

Honing Oil - WD-40 huh? Motor oil is too thick?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I took the cutting bit out of the Ridge-Reamer (R-R) and looked at it.

From the top down (as it fits into the R-R's holder) the side that should cut
when it is rotated to the right is quite dull or beveled. If you change sides
(rotate the bit) and reinsert, the same thing. The sharp edge is the left
edge and one would have to rotate the R-R to the left to have the sharp
edge meet the cylinder ridge. The bit looks new, also.

I don't get it. Why would they make a dull edge to ream metal?

I will do as they say, but I don't see how this thing can slice metal off the
surface of the cylinder wall's top edge....more push it back down I suspect!

Do I need oil present, a cutting oil or motor oil?

I am so close and (knock on wood...) nothing has gotten boogered up yet...

DoctorBill

[idmetro]

DOCTORBILL;
I'd make a slight amendment to "Ask ten people a question about engines and you'll get ten different answers....maybe five of those will be correct." I'd say maybe five of those will be correct according to what the question asker expects to hear. Think back to your younger days - ever do a job the "wrong way" or with the "wrong tools" and have it come out right? It can be done.
Anyway you can get good results with the 3 stone honing tool, personally I like them better as I believe they spread out the work area on the cylinder surface so you aren't so subject to making low spots lower as you might be with the ball hone. Do be careful when you are moving it up and down inside the cylinder so you don't go so far down as to go below the bottom of the cylinder or bang a stone into the crank (It'll probably happen but try to keep the # of times to a minimum as you will damage the honing stones).
As for what oil to use they make a honing oil (which works well) but I'd say anything of low viscosity would work - you will want something thinner than regular motor oil but thicker than WD40. The idea is that the oil will pick up and float away the glaze the stones are cutting off the cylinder so that it doesn't remain in place and become grit that can damage the cylinder wall. Cutting oil might also work and yes I'd use some when you do the ridge reamer it will make it easier.
For honing I'd vote for the corded drill with the lower rpm you aren't really trying to remove much material just create a good mating surface for the new rings. Squirt some oil in the cylinder in two or three places, place the hone in the cylinder letting the springs push the stones against the cylinder walls, start the drill and move the hone up and down in the cylinder. Start at an down/up speed of perhaps 1 second per down/up stroke. After a couple of strokes stop, wipe off the cylinder and look for the intersection of the scratch marks the hone is making on the cylinder wall you will want them to be somewhere between 45-60 degrees. Adjust your down/up speed until you get the desired angle. Each time after you check how you are doing squirt some new oil in there before you fire it up again. As for how much to hone; look at the cylinder when the area where the piston travels up and down is covered with the cross hatching you have just made then you're done. It's been a while since the last time I honed cylinders; I did it the "wrong way" with the "wrong tool" in the wrong environment (it was outside and below zero), the job came out fine and the engine is still going some 75K miles later.

[DOCTORBILL]

Great, Idmetro.... What I was looking for in how to hone...I will be careful!

I drained the oil and took the bolts & Nuts off of the oil pan.
Why both? - I would have thought one or the other, not both!

Anyway - there was some red hard rubbery (mixed with blue softer rubbery) crap
between the pan and the block - and it had them glued together so damned
hard that nothing would dislodge the pan! Man! It was stuck on there something fierce!

RTV Silicone Rubber no doubt...Strong stuff.

I checked - no nuts or screws left. And I was worried the pan would fall off
in my face! lol

I couldn't even get a box cutter blade edge between the pan & the block!

Never seen such tenacious glue or rubber. I'll bet whoever put this pan on
didn't have a rubber seal and used some industrial rubber "stuff"...

Couldn't pry even a corner away from the block with a screwdriver!

I didn't want to bend the pan by reefing on it with some wedge.

I got out my trusty old, well used propane torch and gently softened the red rubber GLUE.
Finally came loose.

But the pan wouldn't come away!

Turns out that there is a plate over the Flywheel that the oil pan goes into!
I removed the Flywheel plate (two bolts) to find two more oil pan bolts!

Got them off and off came the oil pan.

Big wads of red RTV Silicone Rubber hanging off inside the pan and all over the
place! Looks like this:



WTF does Schucks sell Oil Pan Rubber Seals then ? I ordered one! No groove for a seal! Merde! $7.

What a mess.....

DoctorBill

[DOCTORBILL]

Progress....

I finally got the Oil Pan off.... Took some pictures...

My working area. Now you know why the weather controls my progress...



This is all the RTV goop that was hanging inside the oil pan!



This is what the underside of my engine looks like (2 pics by flash)...





So, tomorrow I will Ream the Ridges off my 3 cylinder walls, then go pick up
my rings, rod bearings, and oil seal (that I don't apparently require!) and
begin the Fellowship of the Rings..."my precious..."

Tomorrow I cut metal...."Please Lord, don't let me screw this up!"

Up to now it has been like squeezing pimples and picking scabs.
Tomorrow is Heart Surgery....up scaled somewhat.

DoctorBill

[idmetro]

DOC;
Your tool organizational scheme looks awfully familiar. My work area is a bit upgraded though - it's actual concrete....
As for cutting the ridge on the cylinder just do a little at a time it won't matter if you make multiple passes to get it done. It's easy to remove material but damn hard to put it back. Go slow and you'll be jsut fine.
Make sure you get all that RTV crud cleaned up, you don't want any of it remaining inside the engine where it could get sucked up plugging an oil passage and leading to premature failure of one part or another. If you get a rubber oil pan gasket I'd use it the !@#$%ing RTV only seem to make it possible for people who can't properly assemble things to fill the gap they left behind when they did it wrong. RTV should be used sparingly... unlike what is typically done.
I have maintained for years that all auto designers should first have to spend 5 years working in a shop maintaining the very vehicles they are expecting to design - I think this would solve a lot of the foolish things they do that cause grief down the road when you try to work on a vehicle. I'm guessing that the nuts/bolts on the oil pan are there so you can put the oil pan in place and thread the nuts on the existing studs then screw in the bolts; probably a bit easier than laying on your back trying to hold the pan in place and get the first bolt to go in the hole....
Good Luck!

[geozukigti]

Make sure you remember which rod cap goes onto witch rod, and also remember which direction they're facing. There's a little arrow on each of the rod caps, so it should be pretty easy. The bearings have a habit of popping out of the rod, and off the rod caps, and sticking to the crankshaft. be very careful, and don't let them drop to the ground if they do fall off. Make sure they're squeaky clean(and your fingers) when you re-assemble them and put some engine building grease on. As old as your engine is also, this may be a good time to replace the thrust bearings on the crankshaft. They can be replaced with the crank in-place, you just have to pull the main cap to get to them.

[DOCTORBILL]

How nice.....I went out to ream the ridges in my 3 cyl - 1 L Metro engine..

The Ridge Reamer I rented from Schucks is just ever so slightly larger that the
cylinder walls! It is a 3 inch "Powerbuilt" Ridge reamer.

The cylinder walls measure between 2 7/8th and 2 15/16ths inch in diameter.
The Ridge-Reamer is 3 inches in diameter!

The bore and stroke in the Metro is 2.91 x 3.03 according to the manual which
fits with my measurement.

Called Schucks and that is THE only RR they have. Seems when I looked on
various Web Sites, that 3 inches is the normal size RR.

Called a Rental Place - his will go into a cylinder less than 3 inches he thinks...
An Ammco 2100...Looking it up on the Internet now...
Yes - goes down to 2 9\16ths inch diameter....

I'd like to use some really bad language right now....70 miles round trip getting the Schucks RR.
Now 70 more getting this one plus 70 more to return it.

Ignorance is an expensive thing.....

DoctorBill

PS - picked up my rings, New Head Bolts, and oil pan gasket (cork!) in Spokane this morning.
The Rod Bearings won't be in until Weds the 6th of Sept.
Wish I had tried this RR yesterday - I could have had the right one right NOW.