car comparisons: family sized hatchbacks in the UK.

[drunken monkey]

quite simple really.
it's time that I got myself a bigger car and i'm looking at something around the £5000 mark.

At the moment, there are two main grouos of cars that I am looking at.
The first is something that is bigger but not necessarily more practical than the Yaris that I currently drive:
Fiat coupe

vs
Ford Puma.


As it stands, the Ford Puma is the slightly more expensive car to buy but cheaper to insure. The Fiat (which would be the 20v turbo) is cheaper to but but more expensive to insure. The initial outlay for both works out to be about the same.
The handling of the Puma is virtually legendary for a car of it's size, power and provenance (i.e it is essentially a worked up fiesta) but then again, the Fiat isn't exactly a plow in the handling stakes and a sub 7 sec 0-60 isn't something to sniff at)

The more sensible group of cars would have to be the family sized hatches of the thread title.
The ones that I've been looking at are:
Alfa Romeo 147 2.0 Lusso


Ford Focus ST170


VW Golf V5
(can't find a decent picture.. besides, it just looks like any golf...)

all are at around £6000 (give or take 500) and like before, if you take into account the insurance on the cars, the initial outlay works out to be the same. Which leaves the bigger factor being the costs of day to day running. In my mind, the Focus and Golf are more or less equals in terms of running costs with expensive VW parts offset by less need for them and the fact that any high costs is offset by the Golf being a much better feeling car (no clickity plastic here...) than the Focus.

Here's where i admit to having a strange desire to own an Alfa.
The insurance on the GTA would eat into too much of my mortgage money so the 2.0 is the one I can aim for right now but it really is a bit of a mystery to me. I don't know anyone who actually owns an Alfa and while I hear of bad things about their reliability, I find it hard to actuall believe that it is as bad as people make it out to be, especially in a car that is still so new. Y'know, things that happened in the 80s aren't still going to happen in a 2000 car, right?

so, any insights from any owners on any of these cars?

[Jimster]

Go for the Focus ST170. The Alfa is nice, much better built than any Alfa that went before it, quick, handles well etc, BUT the Focus is the same, with the added bonus that it handles even better than the Alfa and comes with a very slick 6 Speed Getrag gearbox. Electrics/Accessories will be much more reliable as well.

The Golf shouldn't even factor unless you want quality and reliability. Admittedly the V5 is a nice power plant, but the handling is stodgy and front-heavy.



All in all you are best off with the Puma though...

[drunken monkey]

the really bizzare thing is that i am getting lower quotes for insurance for the alfa than i do for a 230bhp RX8.....

[stamar]

I am interested in why these models are the most apealling to you.

what about the honda fit or toyota yaris? Or is it Jazz in the uk?

I am not particularly fond of any of these models as they are all belo average on reliability. How long are you going to own the vehicle, are you going to lease or resell it while it is young?
If that is the case I think I would choose the volkswagon.

I think whats hard for me to guess is what kind of investment this is. Most of the factors, or the major ones, need more sort of accounting thought than gearhead thought.

If you want to sell the car young... or youre not even sure what youre going to do with it, I think you want a very popular model as opposed to a rare one. Also, one that is slightly more expensive than standard price entry vehicle is also the one people look for on the used market young. Some examples of what Im talking about is honda accord, toyota camry, bmw 3, volswagon jetta.
Nobody wants your 3 year old ford puma or fiat or even really your volkswagon is what Im trying to say. That future cost is something to consider as well...

[stamar]

I want to think back to many years ago when I was a volkswagon owner.

Your comment on expensive parts but less cost etc. made me think back.


Here in the us VWs are popular but I have to believe they are more expensive here. I think they sell the us more expensive models than they would in europe.

Anyhow, VW people like to repair their own cars. They are often designed in a do it yourself manner with many maintenance related filters and easier access bolts.
But the parts are very expensive. The vw related businesses are like some little mafia.
A vw person is often intimately acquainted with all the many parts of his car and is really up on it. Bushings orignal design flaws model numbers, parts compatibility..... am I describing this well enough?

I was a volkswagon person once but Im not into being one again lol. To make a long story short. But they do have some very redeeming qualities as well. They often have good gas mileage and interior. You see, volkswagon does want you to hold on to it. Theyll get a good peice of you in time... if you follow my thought.

[Jimster]

The Focus and Golf are perfectly reliable cars, while the Puma topped reliablity surveys from the word go.


The Alfa Romeo is reliable, just plagued with minor glitches and the Fiat is dreadfully unreliable (Though they go like an absolute cut cat).


Things are much different in Europe, the Jetta is invisible, the Golf is a best seller, mid-size hatches hold thier value better than anything, Mid-size sedans depriciate at a about 60% over 3 years on average.

[stamar]

I am not really sure what consumer data you use for vehilcle reliability in the uk.

I use the main consumer data here in the us for us models when i comment on vehicle reliability. A recent consumer reports maybe jd power, or something like that.

I dont know what a survey on reliability would be. This is an interesting cultural topic. Some countries have open consumer data and some do not. Japan would be an extremely consumer data consious society...
Consumer reports follows like the problems of the vehicle and previous models etc.

There is no ford puma but the previous generation was made by kia and very unreliable although i still see a lot on the road. But I dont have recent data on it as it isnt sold in the us anymore.

So going by consumer reports all of those vehicles are rated as way below average. Even a hyundai would be an improvement.

[Jimster]

In all honesty consumer surveys are rubbish, I've worked in the industry long enough to fathom it.

There are far too many variables to take into account e.g. seriousness of problems (It doesn't matter if the engine siezes or the ashtray breaks it's a problem), peoples expectations of the brand (The way that many GM brands found thier way to the top, people had low expectations of Buick/Cadillac etc) and how the customer service experience changes the perception of the car (For example, electrical glitches are common in Lexus GS models, but the customer care service will go out of thier way to put everything right)


The Ford Puma and anything made by Kia are very different. The car you have it confused with is the Festiva and Aspire, the Fiesta is a whole different German-designed Europe only beast..

Quite simply it's more than enough to expect a car to run reliably these days, the lemon rate for a Toyota Corolla is 10%, the lemon rate for a Peugeot 307 is approximately 25%, you can get a lemon anywhere, regardless of where you look, you have a 75% chance of getting a good car. There's no point in driving around in a Japanese blandbox that you hate, just because some inaccurate survey said there is a 5 percentage point chance the car is less likely to break down.

[drunken monkey]

did he just say there is no ford puma despite me posting a picture of it?

[stamar]

No ford puma here in the US. Yep. None for me to look up consumer reports data. Read carefully or ignore me I guess man. You are in the UK and I am in the US. There are different vehicles available in each country.

If your concept of reliability jimster is based on vehicles youve seen, and people you talk to and the vehicles youve owned.... your concept is like a lot of peoples. If you are indeed a professional mechanic you read publications that show model years and problems that could give you an idea, but based on the vehicles you see on the job you would really have no data to go on.

Car reliability is not an opinion. It is a machine, produced by a factory. Millions of cars produced, logs of all problems recorded. If your opinion is based on 10, 20, 1000, 100,000 vehicles it amounts to almost nothing, unless you are basing reliability data on the millions of cars sold in a year you couldnt have enough information to even predict a trend.
I wish I had a link to consumer reports to show you but they charge for online. Very unlikely their publications are available for you to browse at the bookstore like here.

now consumer data can easily be slanted but thats not what Im talking about. What does a lemon percentage have to do with vehicle reliability? Something but actually not that much. Initial quality matters very little to vehicle reliability. But these things are listed seperately sometimes to confuse an ignorant consumer

If you buy and get rid of your cars young its quite possible you wouldnt get burned by an unreliable vehicle. It is quite possible something like the lemon percentage and initial quality listing applies to you more because you will try to avoid problems by dumping the vehicle. In terms of somantics the problems in a new car could be called reliability. Meaning a problem right off the bat.
What weight it has is different for each person I can understand that. But, for you to tell me the golf and the ford focus are reliable vehicles based on what I reference is not a difference of opinion.

[drunken monkey]

something has just occured to me, none of the cars i've listed are available in the US.

[stamar]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

something has just occured to me, none of the cars i've listed are available in the US.

fiat and alfa romeo havent been sold in the us since the early 80s.

All of the other three are sold in the us under a different model but probably not exactly the same. Ford is an american company they definitely sell the ford focus, vw golf but maybe not that exact model.

You have to keep in mind aside from europe that the uk gets different cars from mainland europe as well. It gets the japan/australia/uk only market cars that are right hand drive.

[crayzayjay]

As much as I love the Fiat Coupe, i wouldnt recommend one. My mate had one and repair costs were very high. Everything was an "engine-out" job, it seemed. Even changing the tyres

I wouldn't be seen dead in a Ford. So that leaves the V5 and the 147... for handling reasons, 147...

[drunken monkey]

i don't know what's happening to me but i keep getting urges to go get an old alfa.....

What hope is there of finding a decent condition, good running and reliable Alfa 145 1.6/1.7(boxer)? and even if i do find one, how much is it likely to cost me running it? I see them around for way under £1000 but something about a sub £1000 car, especially an Alfa that strikes a certain fear into my heart.

[Jimster]

lol, most of them will be knackered by now, the boxer 1.7 was a nice engine, but a pain in the ass to work on (Which is bad, since it needs constant work).

You are definitely better off in a 147 than a 145, should you be able to afford it, at least the 2.0 Twinspark is reliable if looked after.