2000 Taurus Brake Issue

[gl6724k]

My 2K Taurus 24V was essentially in storage for 6 mos. When I started driving it again, I started getting an intermittent red brake warning light. It is sometimes on at startup, but usually comes on after a few minutes of driving. Occasionally, I'll get a green traction control activation light and the brake warning light turns off about 10 seconds later - other times it will just turn off. I've cleaned off all the wheel speed sensors and can't see any loose connections (though I'll go back and look again if anybody has a suggestion). Any ideas?

I also had both crankcase vent lines fail about 6 weeks after I started driving again, and I still have a check engine light, with p0171 and p0174 codes and a loud sucking noise coming from the vicinity of the EGR valve, if anybody has ideas on that one. It's going into the shop this week, but if anybody has any magic bullets - or advice about what not to repair - let me know. Thanks.

[KimMG]

Use a diagram and check all your vacuum lines. Use wire ties as hose clamps on the vacuum lines.
Check your brake fluid level.

[joelmar10]

My '99 24V had the exact same problem with the codes and "sucking" sound. It was the pcv hose right under the throttle body. It had rotted and way too much air was getting into the manifold and caused the O2 sensor bank1 and bank2 lean codes. It's U-shaped and it's easy to replace with 3/8" hose after pulling the air intake off the throttlebody. Unfortunately I bought a MAF sensor before I heard the noise. The second connection to the rear of lower manifold asm has a boot that accepts two vacuum lines for the EGR. It simply had expanded to the point where it would fall off and one of the 1/8" lines wouldn't seal. Fixed that with a small hose clamp.

[gl6724k]

I changed a bunch of stuff, but getting rid of the CE light ultimately required replacement of both intake gaskets.

The brakes were a more interesting situation.

The ABS light and I think the airbag light don't work, ever. There were no codes showing up, but the mech working on it called me when he started to investigate that problem to tell me that the radio couldn't be removed because the clamps were out of position (evidently the radio has to be removed to get at the back of the instrument cluster), and that it had definitely been removed before (there were some screws missing from the radio console assembly too). I have never had maintenance done on this car that would require that (that I know of), and I have no idea why that would be done. Also, as I said, the ABS light doesn't work and I checked today and the ABS still doesn't work, though there are no codes in the system. Any ideas?

[shorod]

ABS and SRS/airbag codes can only be read out with scan tools containing the proper software. The generic scan tools available at the local chain parts store cannot read these codes. Was the shop that was attempting to read the codes using a professional scan tool such as a Snap-On, Mac, Cornwell, or OTC?

Do the ABS and SRS lights come on when the ignition key is first turned to the run position?

-Rod

[gl6724k]

"Do the ABS and SRS lights come on when the ignition key is first turned to the run position?

-Rod"

No, those lights never come on with the light test at startup or any other time. The scan was done by Christian Brothers Automotive, as they were troubleshooting a brake warning light (that was a fluid level sensor).

I hope I don't sound too paranoid here, but I know the ABS worked when I moved to the city I live in two years ago. I also know that the ABS did NOT work before I took my car to CB to be worked on. In the interim, it's only been in the shop once, for...a rear brake job. Is there something a mech could do while working on the brakes that would damage the ABS controller? I don't want to think somebody did that and just disconnected the warning system instead of fessing up, so if anybody has a detailed knowledge of this I have a couple of questions:

1. As I said, is it even possible to damage the ABS controller during a brake job?

2. If so, would disconnecting/ disabling the warning light (or whatever action was required to accomplish that) also disable any detectable fault codes for that system?

I should add that I get a traction control light test at startup, but the traction control doesn't work either.

The fact that the radio/instrument cluster has, in the words of the CB guy, "obviously been removed at some point" has me very suspicious. I have copies of every service record this car has ever been in for, including smog checks - nothing and no one has ever mentioned anything about taking the dash apart.

[Huney1]

Shorod has forgot more than I know about high tech problems, BUT, I can tell you an easy test to see if your ABS brakes are working. Find an isolated dirt road and go about 30 MPH then stomp the brake pedal HARD and hold it and if ABS is working you will hear a terrible grinding noise. Now, go back and look at the skid marks and it should be intermitten skid and no skid indicating the ABS is doing its job. I have my own little test track and test mine regularly so try it and youll see what I mean. If you dont hear a grinding noise and there is one long skid mark then ABS is not working.

When you do the test make darn sure noone is behind you that will run into you, and you dont throw your kid or wife into the dash board, and be considerate and dont tear up someones private road. DUH.

[gl6724k]

Actually, I used a wet parking lot, but I have tested both ABS and traction control, and neither one works.

[shorod]

I checked the factory service manual for the 2002 Taurus. This should be pretty similar to your 2000. According to this service manual, the ABS module with Traction Control and the Traction Control module are located in the engine compartment. They both share two common fuses, fuse F2.32 and F2.27, both located in the Central Junction Box. The Central Junction Box is the fuse/relay panel located under the dash panel on the driver's side.

I suggest starting by making sure these fuses are okay. If not, then you will want to determine what caused the fuse(s) to blow in the first place.

-Rod

[gl6724k]

Thanks for the tips on the fuses. They were good, as were the two I found in the engine compartment. I don't know if I made it clear, but I got this car out of the shop on Friday, and all was well except for the ABS/Traction control (I didn't have a good chance to test that stuff until Saturday). I was heading over there today (Monday) when I got another momentary traction control light (while going 45 mph), and now the ABS and traction control work fine. The light still doesn't work though. Since you seem to be the expert here Shorod, would you remove the dash and try to fix that ABS light anyway? They said they could get it out but would "have to use force".

[shorod]

I have the service manual for the 2002 model year. So far, it's been pretty similar to the 2000 MY. According to the 2002 manual, the traction control module and ABS control module are both located under the hood near the driver's side headlamp. I don't understand why the shop claims they'll have to use force to attempt to fix the light. Pulling the dash should not require excessive force. When working on modern cars, there is always a chance something may break in the process if one doesn't pull on the panel in the correct spot, but someone with experience should be able to tell if they are in the right spot or not. Maybe the modules are located differently in the 2000 model year.

I'll have to look through the service manual more tonight to see if something will start to make sense.

Has anyone tried using the proper scan tool to access the ABS/TCS computers to check for codes or monitor the datastream of these computers?

-Rod

[gl6724k]

The '02 manual sounds like it's exactly the same - I don't think this car changed significantly (apart from body style) from '96 on. To clarify on the dash/instrument cluster issue, the shop said the normal procedure to remove the dash is to pull the radio and then either release or disassemble something behind the instrument cluster to get it out. They were unable to do that because the radio had been pulled at least once before and the clamps that hold it in are now either damaged or misaligned. In any case, they are unable to get the radio out. The guy said he could still get the instrument cluster out using some other means, but it required a lot of force and he seemed to think the potential for damaging something was unacceptably high. He does claim to have used a scanner that can detect ABS problems, and that is how they determined what was causing my brake warning light to come on - apparently that was a separate issue from the ABS/TCS problem.

Originally Posted by shorod

I have the service manual for the 2002 model year. So far, it's been pretty similar to the 2000 MY. According to the 2002 manual, the traction control module and ABS control module are both located under the hood near the driver's side headlamp. I don't understand why the shop claims they'll have to use force to attempt to fix the light. Pulling the dash should not require excessive force. When working on modern cars, there is always a chance something may break in the process if one doesn't pull on the panel in the correct spot, but someone with experience should be able to tell if they are in the right spot or not. Maybe the modules are located differently in the 2000 model year.

I'll have to look through the service manual more tonight to see if something will start to make sense.

Has anyone tried using the proper scan tool to access the ABS/TCS computers to check for codes or monitor the datastream of these computers?

-Rod

[shorod]

So to make sure we are on the same page here, this is my understanding of the current situation:
-ABS and traction control both seem to work fine now.
-Currently no TCS or ABS light illuminated on the dash.
-Light test indicates the TCS light works, but the ABS light does not.
-Only concern currently is if it is worth pulling the instrument cluster to repair the ABS light issue.

I want to step back a bit here, considering my above understanding of the situation. What caused CB to believe the ABS system was not working? You probably told them the ABS and TCS were not working, and there was no light. They did not find any troublecodes, but did they indicated that they had difficulty connecting with the ABS computer? If they were able to connect to the ABS computer and there were no codes, I would have expected them to go into the datastream mode and monitor some of the critical parameters in real time.

It sounds like they determined that the ABS system seemed to be working properly and decided to troubleshoot the instrument panel bulb issue. They attempted to remove the radio to gain access to something connected to the instrument cluster. I'm guessing the speedometer or wiring harness, but I've never heard of having to pull the radio to do that. Granted, I've never worked on a 2000 Taurus.

I have removed some radios from Fords with damaged release clips. Using the proper tool (not a bent metal clothes hanger), I've never not been able to get them out. If they understand how the retainers work, I would expect they too would know how to insert the proper tools at a very sharp angle while pressing on the faceplate (to ensure the retainers are not wedged against the housing) and get the tool to slide between the retainer and the housing of the dash. Then they should be able to slide the radio out of the dash using the tools as essentially a ramp to guide the retainers against the radio chassis and allow the radio and retainers to clear the dash housing.

The Brake Warning light should be completely independent of the ABS/TCS computer. The Brake Warning light will come on due to a low fluid level in the master cylinder or when the parking brake lever is engaged. If all you've seen is the Brake Warning light, I would not expect you to have any ABS codes. Often times the ABS light is yellow.

Were you getting a red ABS light, or a red Brake light?

-Rod

[gl6724k]

"So to make sure we are on the same page here, this is my understanding of the current situation:
-ABS and traction control both seem to work fine now.
-Currently no TCS or ABS light illuminated on the dash.
-Light test indicates the TCS light works, but the ABS light does not.
-Only concern currently is if it is worth pulling the instrument cluster to repair the ABS light issue"

Your understanding is correct - everything seems to work properly now, except the "ABS" light and "Check Transaxle" light in the tachometer, which do not light up when the ignition is first turned on or any other time.

"What caused CB to believe the ABS system was not working?"

Me. I ops tested it prior to coming in and had also noticed peculiar behavior, especially the business with the cycling of the traction control light, and occasional inappropriate traction control activation itself (when I'm coasting at 45MPH with my foot off the gas, traction control isn't necessary).

"You probably told them the ABS and TCS were not working, and there was no light. They did not find any troublecodes, but did they indicated that they had difficulty connecting with the ABS computer?"

They did indicate unspecified difficulties. The only thing I remember specifically was that they had to "clear the brake warning" before they could get any readings.

"If they were able to connect to the ABS computer and there were no codes, I would have expected them to go into the datastream mode and monitor some of the critical parameters in real time"

I don't know if they did this. They did drive the car to observe it's behavior and did get a brake warning light as advertised.

"I have removed some radios from Fords with damaged release clips. Using the proper tool (not a bent metal clothes hanger), I've never not been able to get them out. If they understand how the retainers work, I would expect they too would know how to insert the proper tools at a very sharp angle while pressing on the faceplate (to ensure the retainers are not wedged against the housing) and get the tool to slide between the retainer and the housing of the dash. Then they should be able to slide the radio out of the dash using the tools as essentially a ramp to guide the retainers against the radio chassis and allow the radio and retainers to clear the dash housing"

The CB guy went into considerable detail on this issue, and stated specifically that they had some special tool to remove Ford radios and that they couldn't get mine to budge. They also said there were some screws missing somewhere in the assembly, and that they were certain the radio had been removed before.

"The Brake Warning light should be completely independent of the ABS/TCS computer. The Brake Warning light will come on due to a low fluid level in the master cylinder or when the parking brake lever is engaged. If all you've seen is the Brake Warning light, I would not expect you to have any ABS codes. Often times the ABS light is yellow."

They said the same thing, and the brake warning light has not activated apart from when the parking brake is set since I got the car back. I've seen the ABS light activate in the past, but it hasn't since I noticed problems, even when I'm sure the ABS is activating (pedal vibration, etc).

"Were you getting a red ABS light, or a red Brake light?"

A red "Brake" light.

[mwt878991]

The ABS light on my 2000 is an amber light and is on the right side of the dash.


I know this because it came on today

Mike