brake emergency

[pitteach]

I experienced this problem about a year ago, and it came back this weekend. I have a '00 LX that seems to be frying brakes. The first time this happened, the temp was well over 90, I was driving with my daughter on some country roads- very hilly and windy. After about one hour of driving and about 30 miles, my break pedal went to the floor and NO break warning light. I pulled over and the front rotors were red hot. After they cooled, breaks were o.k. but spongy. I assumed that since the brake light did not come on when the pedal hit the floor that the pads were failing. I did not find this surprising as they were the cheapies from Autozone (never again). I replaced with Carquest gold line semi's-was going to go with ceramic but was told that they were not O.E.M.

I just got back from a trip with nearly same conditions- 90+ degrees, country roads, but the van was loaded with 3 kids, 3 adults, and a ton of camping supplies. Anyway, it happened again, no pedal, no light, very scary.

My concern with this is that the brake light is not coming on. Could it be that the brakes are getting so hot that the pad material is turning to mush? I did not change the rotors with the pads and they may be original (80k mi). They do seem to wobble under high heat and heavy load. Rear shoes and drums may be due, but seem to be working.

I am assuming that this is strictly a heat issue, and I am likely going to change rotors and ceramic pads. I am really befuddeled about the lack of warning light and why this would happen. I've never experienced anything like it. Could the booster or master cylinder have anything to do with this? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

[12Ounce]

Loaded up, the Windstar is heavy enough to really heat up the brakes when you're in the hills. I don't believe there is any sensor on the system to detect when this is happening.

You did the correct thing to upgrade the pads but even the toughest pads will only take so much heat. Now that you've overheated the system a couple of times, you surely want to stay on top of periodic brake fluid change-out.

When in the hills, I first take out the "overdrive". Then if the hills are really severe I drop to "2". All to keep the brake fade to a minimum by letting the engine do some braking.

[wiswind]

I would flush the brake fluid.

The newer repair guides don't have you bleed the brake lines at the wheels anymore......they have you drain some of the fluid out of the master cylinder, and push the disk brake caliper cylinder in....pushing the fluid back up into the system.

While this does save time in doing the brake job, it does NOT remove the contaminated fluid from the system. The fluid becomes contaminated at each wheel. When I first did my own brakes over a year ago, I drained the fluid out of each wheel using a mityvac, and got a good 3 bottles of coffee like fluid from each wheel.......

Brake fluid also absorbs water........water has a lower boiling point than the brake fluid. When the water boils, you have "air" pockets of steam in the fluid......it only takes a VERY small amount of air in the system to have your pedal go to the floor......as the air compresses.

I have gone to the trouble to add an additional measure of margin and bought Motorcraft brand of brake fluid from the dealer.
Motorcraft brake fluid has a dry boil point of 550 degrees F.
The highest that I could find in the auto part stores was 480 degrees F.
In other words, DOT3 or DOT4 fluid has a minimum dry boil specification, and the Motorcraft brand far exceeds that.
There are other good, and better fluids out there, which can be bought at racing supply stores. You have to make CERTAIN that the fluid you buy is compatible with the normal fluid that is in your system, and that it is DOT 3 or DOT 4.
The owner's manual for your windstar specifies the Motorcraft brand.......and using a fluid with a lower dry boil point than the 550 degrees F is using a fluid that is less than specified by FORD. That said.....MANY folks use the other brands of fluids, and have NO problems. But I would most certainly flush the fluid from your brake system as it is most certainly not up to par at this point, having been overheated like it has.

Also, use ONLY new brake fluid from a new, sealed bottle. A bottle laying around the garage that you opened last year.....may well have absorbed moisture......and is not worth the risk to use.

I would recommend that you replace your pads AND rotors.....also get the disk brake hardware kit......and perhaps, just in case they are sticking.....new caliper pins (the pins that the calipers ride on....they become worn and stick.....and they are cheap & easy to change).
I have detailed pictures in the pictures that the link in my signature takes you to.....that show my front disk brake pad & rotor replacement.
I put Brembo slotted rotors with Akebono Ceramic pads on.....you can get them for a good price at www.tirerack.com
Take note that you may have some differences on your 2000 windstar from my '96, but my pictures should give you a good idea.
As I remember, my rotors were about $150 ish for the pair, and the pads were $68 for the pair. I still paid less than I would have paid to have the job done with lesser quality parts.

The brake job now has a lot of miles on it.....including 2 nice long 1500mile round trip youth mission trips, with 6 of us, luggage, and the 2nd time pulling a trailer.....up and down the mountains of Tennesee.

Another thing that might be worth looking into is the brake pressure switch on the bottom of the master cylinder......if it is even slightly damp, buy a new one and replace it. I have pictures of that posted as well.
It is easy to replace.

Also, check the fat vaccum line that goes from the master cylinder to the upper intake manifold....and make sure that it is not collapsing or leaking.
It is most likely OK, but worth a check.

[pitteach]

Thanks for the input. This is something I really don't want to mess around with. I was always in the habit of staying on the cheap when it came to brakes, but with three little ones in the car now it's nothing but the best.

Wiswind, I have seen your brake job and I think it is the way to go with the slotted rotors, did you use ceramic pads?

I have never flushed the brake system before, always just a wheel to wheel bleed. What does this involve? Any special tools or is it simply pumping the fluid out of the system? Do I open all bleeders at the same time or do I lose the fluid at a different point? Thanks again for the input.

[wiswind]

1. YES they are ceramic....
2. To flush the brake system, I did it the SAME as a normal bleeding of the brakes, one wheel at a time.....I just drain more out at each wheel......adding to the master cylinder as needed, so that it NEVER goes dry.
I have seen conflicting instructions on bleeding brakes.....the old way, of starting at the wheel farthest from the master cylinder, and working your way to the wheel that is closest.....which would be rear passenger side, rear driver side, front passenger side, front driver side. Also, I have seen instructions saying to start with the wheel closest to the master cylinder.....and working your way to the wheel that is farthest from the master cylinder..... Either way.....you will be doing a WHOLE lot more good than any harm.
The worst fluid will be right at each wheel....

Another note......whenever you do ANYTHING with your brakes......be very carefull about moving your car for the first time.......have your hand at the ready to shift into PARK........
Pump the pedal......to make sure that it is firm.....
Then start the car (keeping the vehicle in PARK)....pump the pedal.....if it goes to the floor......that is a problem....most likely air in the system....which you will need to correct (carefully bleed each wheel.....)
Once you have a consistant firm pedal......that stays firm when you leave your foot off the pedal for...say 15 seconds.....and press on it.....it must be firm..........
THEN, release the parking brake....and shift into gear......let the vehicle very slowly drift....and apply the brakes......if they do not work.....shift into PARK right away....at a very slow drift....it will not hurt your tranny.
Following this procedure will prevent you from driving into something, should there be a serious problem with the brakes.

I switched from having my brakes done for me to doing them myself after a dealership got the antisqueal goo onto the rotors and pads......which seriously reduced the braking effectiveness.......also they did not tighten a lug nut.....to the point that it fell off.......and by the time I realized it.....the rotor was warped.

Many shops go cheap on the parts, so that they can have a competitive price. "Lifetime Pads", you will find that they want to replace the rotors again......or something else.....It gets you back into their shop for the next brake job.

[road_rascal]

Doing brakes on the Windstar is pretty easy. I'll bet the first time you do it you can have the job finished in under four hours (really taking time), including flushing the fluid lines with a Mityvac. The two times I've done the fronts on my '01 it takes me around 2.5 hours start to finish, but I'm putsy, work slow, grease the caliper slides, torque everything to spec and check out other bits and pieces when the van is on the jack stands.

[pitteach]

You speak of using a Mightyvac when flushing brake lines-- is this necessary, or will pushing the pedal do. If not where do you pick up one of those gadgets? Thanks!

Wiswind, it looks as though Bembro does not make the slotted rotors for the '00 model, too bad. may go with their plain vented rotor.

[road_rascal]

You can get a Mityvac at any auto parts store for around $40 for the metal bodied unit (much better than the plastic one). Not really necessary, but much easier when doing one-man brake fluid exchanges. When using it, just make sure you don't suck the brake resevoir dry and get air into the lines (BTDT).

[DRW1000]

I don't know what a "Mityvac" but a vacuum gauge (pump) will serve the purpose.

I have also read of the farthest wheel to closest vs closest to farthest debate. I think with older vehicles the order was RR, LR, RF LF (farthest to closest with repsect to the master cylinder). For the Windstar is is the opposite. I don't know why this has changed and I doubt ABS has anything to do with it but as Wiswinds says either way you will be doing more good than harm.

Of interest to the Canadian owners:
Canadian Tire sells Dot 3 fluid with 3 different temperature ranges One of which has a boiling point of 550 degrees so there is no need to go to Ford.

In regards to the original question about the potential heat turning the pads to mush:

I have read that when the rotors heat up too much such as a long stop after a highway exit that the rotors can head up the pads to the point where the material will transfer to the rotors. This is often (so the article states) the cause of the so called "out of round condition" of the rotors. The suggestion is to stop the vehicle and then release the pads so that the rotors can cool and not heat up the pads. So based on this article the rotors couls heat up the pads enough to affect them.

[phil-l]

"Mityvac" is merely a particular brand name of handheld vacuum pump/gauge.

[road_rascal]

This is what I'm talking about:

http://www.mityvac.com/pages/products_hvpk.asp

[pitteach]

It's seems as though Autozone has one of these units as a loan tool item. I will try it and check it out. I may buy one in the future as it seems to be a handy little item. Thanks to all!

[phil-l]

Yes, a useful item to have around. One hint: I have a Craftsman vacuum pump that is all-metal construction and has tolerated some abuses that an all-plastic pump might not.

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/produ...seBVCookie=Yes

[DRW1000]

I bought a Lisle brand at Princess Auto. Fairly good price. They are online too (princessauto.com).

btw the Fluid I saw at Crappy Tire is Stated Ford and has a boiling point of 550F. Cost about $4 for a good sized bottle.

[jd-autotech]

Also Make Your Rear Brakes Are Working And Are Properly Adjusted So The Can Help The Front With Some Of That Braking