301 upgrade

[lilhomy10]

hey there im redoing a 1977 pontiac bonnevillehttp://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=car0088in.jpg
it currently has a301 and im upgrading to a 400 rebuilt for about 1300. i was wondering what was the the stock hp on this thing and what would be the most cost effiecient way to get up around 375-400hp.hopefully without head work if possible.im new to this and appreciate all help ty.

[MrPbody]

Depends on which 400 you start with. If you're fortunate enough to find a semi-complete late '60s GTO or Firebird 400 engine, you're most of the way there at the start. If you have a mid-70s "smogger", there's a bit more work to be done, but it's quite "doable".

First thing to do, is invest $20 in Jim Hand's "How to Build Max-performance Pontiac V8s" by SA Designs. This is the most complete and CURRENT study of the old Injun (what we affectionately call the "traditioinal" Pontiac).

I believe your budget to be a bit on the small side, to really get a good performer that is durable enough to pound on regularly. Avoid "remanufactured" Pontiacs. They've been out of production for so long, little if any true expertise still exists in a rebuilder. A "custom" engine shop with Pontiac experience is the ticket. There are many.

Why would you want to avoid head modifications? This is the single most important aspect to power production in ANY engine, not just the Pontiac.

The relatively big car can certainly be made to perform. There's a couple of "regulars" at the Pontiac races with '77 and '78s that go 11s in streetable trim.

If you spell out your performance requirements and fuel situation, I can make some specific recommendations to get you where you want to be. Most important: Don't allow yourself to be persuaded to use a Chevy engine because "you can't make power with the Pontiac". 'Taint so... (:-

Jim

[lilhomy10]

Originally Posted by MrPbody

Depends on which 400 you start with. If you're fortunate enough to find a semi-complete late '60s GTO or Firebird 400 engine, you're most of the way there at the start. If you have a mid-70s "smogger", there's a bit more work to be done, but it's quite "doable".

First thing to do, is invest $20 in Jim Hand's "How to Build Max-performance Pontiac V8s" by SA Designs. This is the most complete and CURRENT study of the old Injun (what we affectionately call the "traditioinal" Pontiac).

I believe your budget to be a bit on the small side, to really get a good performer that is durable enough to pound on regularly. Avoid "remanufactured" Pontiacs. They've been out of production for so long, little if any true expertise still exists in a rebuilder. A "custom" engine shop with Pontiac experience is the ticket. There are many.

Why would you want to avoid head modifications? This is the single most important aspect to power production in ANY engine, not just the Pontiac.

The relatively big car can certainly be made to perform. There's a couple of "regulars" at the Pontiac races with '77 and '78s that go 11s in streetable trim.

If you spell out your performance requirements and fuel situation, I can make some specific recommendations to get you where you want to be. Most important: Don't allow yourself to be persuaded to use a Chevy engine because "you can't make power with the Pontiac". 'Taint so... (:-

Jim

hey jim 1300 is not my budget its what i could get a reman for my budget is about 3-4 grand. i was going to start with a reman from advance should i not?then where do i start. i would love to have a 60s model but didnt think it would fit right in.just redid th ac system and dont want to have to change it . and why is it that everyone wants to put a chevy 350 in everything i cant be persuaded i want the 400. from the research ive done and specs ive seen i cant c gettin power out of it as being any problem at all.

[MrPbody]

IMO, remans are for convenience and for later model vehicles long beyond any "collector" or performance value. The Pontiac V8 went out of production in '78. '79 T/As and Formulas got the last stash they had. Generally speaking, rebuilders concentrate on engines made in the last 10-15 years, as those are the ones that are in demand IN VOLUME. Pontiac V8s have long ago been obsolete for production rebuilders.
Also, remans are built with the cheapest parts known to man, on a production line employing "factory workers", NOT automotive machinists. There's usually one or two real machinists, that roam the floor in a producton shop, putting out "spot fires" when the labor can't figure it out. A reman is certainly NOT a good basis for a performance build.

I can't emphasize enough, get the book. It's a piece of cake (figuratively speaking) to get 400 HP and 450 lb. ft. from a 9:1 400 Pontiac. If you're a little more adventurous, 500 isn't out of the question, within certain budget "constraints"... As for the buzzing in your ear about the Chevy, keep quiet, build the Poncho, and THEN, after you've tuned it, and run it at the track a couple of times, tell 'em to put money where mouth is!

Jim

[lilhomy10]

Originally Posted by MrPbody

IMO, remans are for convenience and for later model vehicles long beyond any "collector" or performance value. The Pontiac V8 went out of production in '78. '79 T/As and Formulas got the last stash they had. Generally speaking, rebuilders concentrate on engines made in the last 10-15 years, as those are the ones that are in demand IN VOLUME. Pontiac V8s have long ago been obsolete for production rebuilders.
Also, remans are built with the cheapest parts known to man, on a production line employing "factory workers", NOT automotive machinists. There's usually one or two real machinists, that roam the floor in a producton shop, putting out "spot fires" when the labor can't figure it out. A reman is certainly NOT a good basis for a performance build.

I can't emphasize enough, get the book. It's a piece of cake (figuratively speaking) to get 400 HP and 450 lb. ft. from a 9:1 400 Pontiac. If you're a little more adventurous, 500 isn't out of the question, within certain budget "constraints"... As for the buzzing in your ear about the Chevy, keep quiet, build the Poncho, and THEN, after you've tuned it, and run it at the track a couple of times, tell 'em to put money where mouth is!

Jim

hey mr i got the book. and its already persuaded me. i also stopped in a performane and think i found a pretty good deal. the man told me the same thing u did reman parts are junk from japan.he told me he could get me a 455 from a dealr he trusted change out all the bs parts and have about 400hp and 500lb of tq installed 3-4 grand. and a sizzler th4oo tranny for about 750.my mechanic said it snded pretty decent.when i went there he had nothing but corvettes there and he told me not to chnage to chevy.

[MrPbody]

Good luck to you! That price of $3-4K for a complete 500 HP 455 installed is a bit optimistic. We get $4,500 for just the 500 HP 455, no install included (we don't "do" cars, just engines). Read the book carefully, and be sure all the important points are covered, in particular, the shortblock and the necessary upgrades to make it "live". By no small coincidence, I wrote that chapter (Chapter 2, "Building Your Shortlblock"). I cannot state enough, the rods should be replaced with GOOD ones.

Let me know if I can be of any further assistance.

Jim

[lilhomy10]

Originally Posted by MrPbody

Good luck to you! That price of $3-4K for a complete 500 HP 455 installed is a bit optimistic. We get $4,500 for just the 500 HP 455, no install included (we don't "do" cars, just engines). Read the book carefully, and be sure all the important points are covered, in particular, the shortblock and the necessary upgrades to make it "live". By no small coincidence, I wrote that chapter (Chapter 2, "Building Your Shortlblock"). I cannot state enough, the rods should be replaced with GOOD ones.

Let me know if I can be of any further assistance.

Jim

hey jim i wish it was 500hp but it was 400hp with about 500lbs of torque.and the 3-4 grand was a guesstimate he still has to get a final tabulation and get back to me. i also cant say for sure that included install. and he would be selling me a tranny if we can get a deal done on the engine. he also stressed the need for new rods and a good strong block to start off with.he did sound pretty optimistic that was easily attainable with a pontiac block.and judging from the assortment of hi performance corvettes i observed on the lifts of his 1 man shop and yrs of service he looks reputable. hopefully looks are not deceiving.ill post again when i hear back and get some exact figures thnx jim. oh when i talked to him i said i wanted the engine built out of the car so he probably did not include install.

[MrPbody]

Okay. Sounds about right. One thing, though. The 400 block is significantly stronger than the 455. The reason is simple. 400s have a 3" main journal. 455, 3.25". Since the blocks are essentially the same casting, the "hole" (main tunnel) down the middle of the block is smaller in the 400, leaving more material in the main bulkheads, where it's needed the most. It's common practice today, to "stroke" the 400 to 455 specs. Eagle supplies an excellent kit for this purpose. One must be sure about compression ratio and fuel requirements.

Jim

[lilhomy10]

Originally Posted by MrPbody

Okay. Sounds about right. One thing, though. The 400 block is significantly stronger than the 455. The reason is simple. 400s have a 3" main journal. 455, 3.25". Since the blocks are essentially the same casting, the "hole" (main tunnel) down the middle of the block is smaller in the 400, leaving more material in the main bulkheads, where it's needed the most. It's common practice today, to "stroke" the 400 to 455 specs. Eagle supplies an excellent kit for this purpose. One must be sure about compression ratio and fuel requirements.

Jim

hey jim now im confused. first i wanted a 400. but after reading ur first 2chp i chngd my mind. i want more power on the low to mid range end and u said it was about the same cost and the 455 produces more torque power.ill be changing gear to a 411 with bigger rims so figured i need all the torque i can get.i see the comment about the main journal in the book but i wont be doing any racin so will this affect me?