91 Voy/3.3/Engine no power, shakes/wont start cold

[Taz480]

This thread actually started out being called:
"91 Voy/3.3/Engine no power, shakes/won't start cold"

I changed the title due to my recent findings and I need serious help. Please read thru.

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1991 Voyager LE
3.3L V6

Hello again. Last weekend, got in van to go somewhere and hesitated when starting. Then, once started, ran real rough like it was really cold or perhaps had sat for a real long time. Hasn't though, driven daily. Only ran rough for a moment. Warmed up and fine. Drove it all day running A/C constantly(90+ degrees). Next day, went to town(25 miles) and then headed south on a short trip. Started losing a little power up hill and ran a little rough a idle, just like bad plugs or wires. Cancelled trip and headed home by way of parts store for 6 new plugs and wires. It was late. Figured I could make it at least to work next day and then change the plugs and wires after work. Work is only 3 miles from house. Went out at 5:30am to start van. Cranks but won't start. Got a ride. Called wife at lunch and had her try starting while I was on phone. Wouldn't at first but after cranking a minute, it did. But now it was running really rough, not just a little. It was running like it was on 3 or 4 cylinders and shaking a little. Ok, so I come home and change the plugs and wires. No change, although they were well due. I also had trouble with the rear middle plug(1 or 3 I think). It felt like it was stripped out. I also cracked the porcelin. fortunately, it was only a small piece and I glued it back on with industrial adhesive(Locktite 401) and it was totally covered by the socket boot anyway. I managed to sort of re-thread it with the old plug and got the new one in. I really thought it was the plugs as they were all very burnt and gap off by more than .050 on most of them.
Anyway, it did run a little bettr but still seemed to miss a little. I tried to track it down. Worst between 1K and 2K RPM. The miss(or vibration) was actually the cat. converter. There was all kinds of crap rattling around inside making me think it may be clogged. It did kind of have that "get rid of me" smell, too. So I drilled some holes for temporary relief. Didn't hep, just made it annoyingly loud as expected. I completely removed the cat and replaced with straight pipe. Quieter but still has problems. Usually won't start in morning. Not really that cold, it is summer. Will start later in the day, though. Once it actually started during the day and actually ran really good for the first 30 seconds then went back to running like crap. I haven't had a lot of time to troubleshoot everything yet, been busy with work and trying to get my other, back-up car going that's been sitting for 2 years so I can get to work and store. Otherwise we're stranded. Still in the process of troubleshooting, just waiting for the weekend. I just wanted to get a thread going. Basically just wanted to get a few ideas or directions, rather. I don't believe it's the ASD relay in the mornings and i do believe fuel is good but I am open to all suggestions.

Basically.......
Won't start in morning but will middle of day and later and then runs like it's on 3 cylinders. I will keep you updated on my troubleshooting findings as I go. Any obvious sensors to check? I replaced the cam and crank sensors in November last year but actually the new crank sens was bad and ended up putting the old one back in and was fine. I was thinking maybe O2 sensor? I dunno. Thanx!

[Bernard Feltzer]

I say your fuel pump is bad.

You are getting spark, and it turns over, so you are not getting fuel.

[Taz480]

Thank you for the reply. Its finally the weekend but unfortunately I have to work OT tomorrow. I will definately double check the fuel. However I would venture to say that fuel is good. In fact when it does start, it burns really rich, it seems like. I may be wrong. If the fuel pump goes, doesn't it just go? I thought thats what I've always heard. Plus, if the fuel pump is gone, why would it start later in the morning or after noon? I can go out and start it at the drop of a hat any time during the day and it will start fine. It just runs like crap. But if I crank it over at say, 5:30 AM, nuttin. I can crank it all morning, nuttin. come back at lunch......it'll start right up after a few cranks but runs like it's on 3 cylinders. Also, knowing what I know about this van and everything I've read here and how computer/sensor dependant these vans are, I'm betting it's a sensor. I haven't checked any codes yet. I can only get certain ones from the dash anyway. I was just hoping for some ideas of which way to look so I'm not guessing and throwing sensors at it wasting money. Thanx again for your reply.

[Bernard Feltzer]

Fuel pumps in the gas ranks can go out slowly.
Sometimes they just die, give the bottom of gas tank a whack with a rubber mallet, it will start working.
Sometimes they work, but don't deliver full pressure because seals are worn, or someone drove it with an empty tank, ruining the seals.
Usually they quit when you are on the freeway in the middle of no where on a nice hot steamy day in Texas.
It could be a crank sensor or bad ignition coil.

[Taz480]

Ya, I already tried the rubber mallet trick.(I've been a good forum user and done a lot of searching and reading.) I even beat the hell out of it to make sure. No change. Besides, as I said before, if the fuel pump was going bad, even slowly, that wouldn't completely explain why it will start immediately during the day and refuse to in the morning. Also, like I said, I already messed with the crank and cam sensors last Nov. Of course, there's nothing that says it isn't a problem, tho. That would suck. Like if crank and cam sensors turned out to be a replacement every 6 months at around $50 each, LOL!!! Although it sounds like they are in some of these threaads, he-he!! And as far as the coil, well I kinda, sorta doubt that's it cuz I don't gots me one of dem der thingy-bobbers.
(3.3 has coil pack, not ignition coil) That's one of the things I gotta check, the primary and secondaries on the coil pack. Jeez, I STILL haven't been able to get out there to start working on this thing. Think I'm gonna start tomorrow, tho. Thanx again a whole bunch for your help!!!!!!!!

[Taz480]

Well...update I guess. I think I may know what is going on. It appears someone has placed an egg in my fuel filller tube and then screwed the cap back on thus breaking the egg and allowing the yoke and whites to deposit into the fuel tank. I can't even begin to tell you how absolutely freakin furious I am right now. Especially since I have reason to believe that my neighbors daughter did it. I don't have proof yet but I have a witness who overheard her saying she was going to put syrup or something in our fuel tank simply because her 6 year old sister and my 4 and 5 year old kids were arguing with eachother whiile playing together. This goes on all the ime. Kids do that. Fighting one minute and best friends the next, back and forth. Of course it's just hear-say. Anyway, lets get past that. I changed the inline, under frame filter to see if it stuck there. Nope. That leaves either the lil fiter on the in tank pump, the pump or the injectors, right? I can check the PSI at the fuel rail. Anyone know a good visual way to check the fuel output. I don't have access to the proper equipment to get the actual PSI. When I hold the schrader valve open and crank it, I get a pretty good shot out of it onto the windshield but I know the pressure here is critical. If I end up replacing the pump and/or the injectors, what els is in the fuel delivery path that may be clogged up or I should check out or be worried about?? I think I may be really screwed here and I hope my neighbors daughter(or whoever did it) ends up with a very painful virus that puts them into convulsions permanantly. I am pi$$ed!!

I know it's 4th/July weekend but hopefully someone is on who can help. You all have helped me so much before. I'm not even sure which way to go, now. Thanx!!


EDIT-
Oh ya, I did check other things, too. Coil pack is good. ASD relay is doing it's job. Got plenty of spark. Nothing making the ASD relay shut down. It all wants to be a van but it won't. No codes yet but thats because I haven't checked for them. I was about to when I opened my fuel cap. Although, my fuel pump does it's normal, 3 to 4 second "Shhzzzrrrrrrr" sound when the key is turned on and like I said it shoots fuel out of the rail. I also asked my father-in-law, who's a dodge owner and expert, if the fuel pump could go slowly. He said no, if they're done, they're done. However, they will sometimes go slowly in the sense that they still run fine, like they're on all 6 cyl. but big loss of power. Anyway, I appreciate any help. Thanx!

[Taz480]

Oh, I had another thought while I was waiting for replies. Just by any chance does anyone know if I have any kind of legal leverage or recourse, here? The daughter is a minor. Her mom is terminally ill with cancer and has only a short time to live and lets them pretty much do what they want most of the time. They crawl out of their bedroom window at 2 oclock in the morning every other day. Anyway.........

[KManiac]

If someone has put FOD (Foreign Object Damage) in your fuel tank, you're going to have to pull it out and clean it out. Once you get it out and clean it out, I would recommend replacement of the fuel pump and fuel filter on general principle. It doesn't make sense to try and reuse it only to find you need to replace it anyway and have to pull the tank again. With the pre-filter sock at the pump inlet and the main fuel filter between the tank and the engine compartment, your under-hood fuel components are well protected. I would not expect anything like "clogged injectors" from this incident. A set of fuel pressure test gauges will cost you far less than the price of a new pump or one hour of shop labor time and is a good investment. Pick them up at our local auto parts store.

As far as legal responsibility or legal action, unless you have pictures or an eyewitness to the event (someone over hearing someone else is heresay), your pretty much out of luck. I would recommend a locking gas cap to prevent future FOD.

I know how violated you can feel when someone does something like this to your car. I recently discovered that someone had tried to siphon gasoline out of my old pick up truck. They took very little if any gasoline, but the B*****D's KEPT MY GAS CAP!! I replaced the cap with an aftermarket locking gas cap for the price of 6 gallons of gas. It least I don't have to worry about losing anymore gas in this car.

[Taz480]

Thanx for your reply. Kinda sucks it's holiday weekend. I usually get a lot more responses. But I am still so appreciative. I'm gonna go to parts store today and price fuel pressure guages. You don't think I could just get away with changing the pump assembly, in-line filter and be good with it? I really don't have any way to clean out the tank. How do I do that? As it is right now, I'm gonna have to drop it with at least 14 gallons of fuel in it. I filled up just before it died. I don't have any where to put that fuel. Thanx again for your help!!!!!

[KManiac]

Just in case I wasn't clear before, "all you need to do is replace the fuel pump and fuel filter". Everything under the hood should be fine. I expect that the egg residue has plugged up your pre-filter pick up screen in the tank and maybe the pump and main filter, too, nothing more.

You will need to drain the tank of its fuel before you drop and change the pump. Hopefully you can still obtain the military style, 5-gallon metal gas cans in your state. They no longer sell them here in California for environmental reasons. Good thing I have four of them in my shed. If you look up by the front of your tank, you will see what looks like a metal fuel line with a cap on it. It is the siphon line designed to be used to drain the tank for maintenance. You will need to get some kind of siphon device to get fuel flow started. Drain into a metal can and be sure to add metal grounding wires between the can and fuel tank to prevent static electrical discharge. Not good around gasoline vapors. If all you can find are plastic gas cans, use them, but I prefer metal for safety reasons.

Once you get the tank out of the car, remove the pump and float assemblies, then spray the thing out with a garden hose. Make sure you get all the loose debris out of the tank. Be sure to spray out the filler neck as well. The leftover gas in the tank will evaporate. Let the water residue in the tank evaporate before you reassemble.

Let us know how things go and if you have any questions.

[Taz480]

Originally Posted by KManiac

Just in case I wasn't clear before, "all you need to do is replace the fuel pump and fuel filter". Everything under the hood should be fine. I expect that the egg residue has plugged up your pre-filter pick up screen in the tank and maybe the pump and main filter, too, nothing more.

You will need to drain the tank of its fuel before you drop and change the pump. Hopefully you can still obtain the military style, 5-gallon metal gas cans in your state. They no longer sell them here in California for environmental reasons. Good thing I have four of them in my shed. If you look up by the front of your tank, you will see what looks like a metal fuel line with a cap on it. It is the siphon line designed to be used to drain the tank for maintenance. You will need to get some kind of siphon device to get fuel flow started. Drain into a metal can and be sure to add metal grounding wires between the can and fuel tank to prevent static electrical discharge. Not good around gasoline vapors. If all you can find are plastic gas cans, use them, but I prefer metal for safety reasons.

Once you get the tank out of the car, remove the pump and float assemblies, then spray the thing out with a garden hose. Make sure you get all the loose debris out of the tank. Be sure to spray out the filler neck as well. The leftover gas in the tank will evaporate. Let the water residue in the tank evaporate before you reassemble.

Let us know how things go and if you have any questions.

Yes, you were very clear. I apologize. I hope I didn't sound as tho I wasn't appreciative of your help and suggestions or didn't trust your opinion in some way. You also need to remember that many people expressing their opinions about one issue will vary. I Know quite a bit about cars and mechanics but with every new lesson or venture, I like to do a lot of research and ask a lot of people a lot of questions. I've had a few peoiple tell me the same thing about the pump end of it and i've had a few people tell me that it definately could and probably did make it to the injectors. I don't pass off anyones opinions or suggestions. I take them all into consideration. At that point I have to find some sort of medium to help me make the choice of which direction to go. Obviously cost is one of the factors. Fortunately, in this case, the use of the EFI pressure tester will help me and I will be purchasing one from parts store Friday when I get payed. my funds have become depleted with all this so I'm stuck on hold until then. If PSI is good at the rail then I know that regulator, filter and pump are OK. And if PSI isn't good, then I can quit sweating over injector replacement for now. I just didn't want you to think I was asking for help, getting it from you and completely ignoring your suggestions. I just have to be open to all possibillities. So, for now, I guess I'm on hold till Friday. I just gotta get thru the 4th and 3 days of work and then I can jump right back into the fire. He-He!!

Again, thank you all sooooooooo much!!!!!

[Bernard Feltzer]

Where is the other parental unit of brat kids?
If the Mom is going to die soon, then what?
I don't know how you are going to get egg crap out of gas tank, it won't even come off of dishes in a dishwasher.
You could always stick a garden hose in their window at 2 in the morning.

[3DRCpilot]

Remember, a pump can build pressure, but the filter needs to let it flow. The pump running 3-4 seconds leans me toward the clogged filter side of the problem. My 92-GC pump runs less than a second.

I've popped a big block learning that one years ago.

[Taz480]

Originally Posted by 3DRCpilot

Remember, a pump can build pressure, but the filter needs to let it flow. The pump running 3-4 seconds leans me toward the clogged filter side of the problem. My 92-GC pump runs less than a second.

I've popped a big block learning that one years ago.

Oh, no. The 3-4 second run of the pump is just the normal run it makes when you turn the key on. It's normal. If you were to just turn the key from off to start position and start the van you'd never hear it. It's always done that just like all of my fuel injected cars along with the guage and systems check.

We talked to the mom. She was actually very sympathetic and said "she F'n better not have done it!! If she did she's gonna pay for it!!" So the daughter came home last evening. I don't know what happened at that point. Might have just been...."did you do it?"......"no"......"alright, then. You better not have."
I dunno. I think we're gonna let our insurance take care of it. They should cover it as vandalism. Have to call or look through our policy. I'm sure that will require a police report, having the van towed to service shop and all that wonderful headache. We'll see after the holiday.

[mwrobe1]

Originally Posted by Taz480

They crawl out of their bedroom window at 2 oclock in the morning every other day. Anyway.........

WTF?
BTW...where's the daddy?

My best advice to you for ongoing maintenance on your minivan is...moving.
Jesus H Christ...just when I thought I heard it all.

My best legal advice to you is to contact DCFS...while it may seem draconian...those kids will be better off in the longrun IMHO.