95 Caravan 3.0L - A/C Question

[Flashfox]

I was told that there is a leak and that it would cost me around $1500-$1800 to fix.

As I wasn't interested in putting that much money into this old minivan, I decided to refill the system as needed... even if it's more than once a year.

My problem...

a. Bought R-134a refill kit at Pep-Boys (Interdynamics Stop Leak and Arctic Freeze regrigerant w/dispenser).

b. Started the car, set AC to max.

c. Inserted the Stop Leak per instructions (two step process).

c. Prepared the regrigerant can and connected to low side (confirmed that the refrigerant flows by pressing the handle for a fraction of a second and noticing the gas being ejected prior to connecting it).

d. Pressure indicator is in the yellow portion (s/b in the blue area)... see "f."

e. The car's "Check valve" (under the jack on the high side hose) shows foamy circulation. Per the manual, this means that the level is low.

f. Compressor's clutch engages for about 4-5 seconds, then it releases. 4-5 seconds later, it reengages then releases 4-5 seconds later (constant cycle).

g. Cannot seem to "fill" the system as the can stays full and the pressure gauge nudges to the red portion (stays in the yellow). Check Valve still shows foamy circulation and there is no A/C.

So... any ideas as to what I might be missing? I "hope" that it's not the compressor

Edit: Could I have a bad can of refrigerant???

By the way, WHY does the AC service cost so much? It "seems" simple enough (for a non mechanic)

[capoeta]

How long did you leave the can connected to the system? I charge my system and it reacts in similar fashion. I just leave it on there for about 10 to 15 mins and slowly the freon gets absorved into the system. the pressure gauge will begin to come down once the can begins to loose some pressure.

The compressor is cycling on/off because there is not enough pressure in system to keep compressor clutch engaged.

hope this helps. a search should also generate plenty of reading topics...

[Flashfox]

Originally Posted by capoeta

How long did you leave the can connected to the system? I charge my system and it reacts in similar fashion. I just leave it on there for about 10 to 15 mins and slowly the freon gets absorved into the system. the pressure gauge will begin to come down once the can begins to loose some pressure.

The compressor is cycling on/off because there is not enough pressure in system to keep compressor clutch engaged.

hope this helps. a search should also generate plenty of reading topics...

Thanks for the help... I was not waiting 10-15 minutes. I would press the handle, wait 2-3 minutes then release the handle and take a reading. I must have not been waiting long enough. I will retry this evening and post the results. (I will also get a stand alone filler tube & gauge as the one I have requires me to hold the trigger then release it to read the pressure).

Thanks again ;-)

[MT-2500]

Originally Posted by Flashfox

I was told that there is a leak and that it would cost me around $1500-$1800 to fix.

As I wasn't interested in putting that much money into this old minivan, I decided to refill the system as needed... even if it's more than once a year.

My problem...

a. Bought R-134a refill kit at Pep-Boys (Interdynamics Stop Leak and Arctic Freeze regrigerant w/dispenser).

b. Started the car, set AC to max.

c. Inserted the Stop Leak per instructions (two step process).

c. Prepared the regrigerant can and connected to low side (confirmed that the refrigerant flows by pressing the handle for a fraction of a second and noticing the gas being ejected prior to connecting it).

d. Pressure indicator is in the yellow portion (s/b in the blue area)... see "f."

e. The car's "Check valve" (under the jack on the high side hose) shows foamy circulation. Per the manual, this means that the level is low.

f. Compressor's clutch engages for about 4-5 seconds, then it releases. 4-5 seconds later, it reengages then releases 4-5 seconds later (constant cycle).

g. Cannot seem to "fill" the system as the can stays full and the pressure gauge nudges to the red portion (stays in the yellow). Check Valve still shows foamy circulation and there is no A/C.

So... any ideas as to what I might be missing? I "hope" that it's not the compressor

Edit: Could I have a bad can of refrigerant???

By the way, WHY does the AC service cost so much? It "seems" simple enough (for a non mechanic)

You need to stop right now before you kill or injure yourself or someone else.
Freon like artic freeze contain a propane /butane mixer and that stuff will blow up like a bomb.

Also never try to recharge a system without the proper low and high side gauges .

A bad air cond system pressure can reach over 500 lbs and blow up. It will freeze you than burn you when it does.
500 lbs pressure = 500 degrees tempture enought to blind you and burn the flesh off of your hands and if it has propane mix in it it will then blow shy high.

http://www.ackits.com/merchant2/merc...uct_Code=66773

http://www.ackits.com/merchant2/merc...e=DIY-STARTER1

http://www.ackits.com/merchant2/merc...ode=DIYADVANCE


Now with that being said you now have a system full of propane and stop leak crap plus who knows what kind of oil in it.

For anyone to fix it now the system will have to be pumped out and the crap you put in it is now hazard waste.

Here is a good link for air cond repair info.
http://www.autoacforum.com/
MT

[Flashfox]

Originally Posted by MT-2500

You need to stop right now before you kill or injure yourself or someone else.

Now with that being said you now have a system full of propane and stop leak crap plus who knows what kind of oil in it.

For anyone to fix it now the system will have to be pumped out and the crap you put in it is now hazard waste.

Here is a good link for air cond repair info.
http://www.autoacforum.com/
MT

Sorry? What am I missing here?

a. I followed the lead from the mechanic at the shop
b. I read about the process.
c. I bought the required R-134a refill kits per the shop's suggestion.
d. I followed the instructions that are provided with these kits.
e. The kit does come with a pressure meter, which I used (along with gloves and safety goggles).
f. I connected the can to the low side, as they instruct you to.

So... as these are commercially available products that are sold to common mortals, are you telling me that it will "kill me" if I used it per the instructions? That these off-the-shelf products are a disaster waiting to happen? (such as gasoline, propane, ethanol, etc. if MISUSED)

Also, what the heck do you mean by ""...For anyone to fix it now the system will have to be pumped out and the crap you put in it is now hazard waste..."? What "crap"?

I used the recommended products as instructed by the mechanic and followed the instructions.

And by the way, the shop mechanic suggested this path as the alternative is to replace the compressor for over $1500... which is not worth the cost for this vehicle.

[MT-2500]

Originally Posted by Flashfox

Sorry? What am I missing here?

a. I followed the lead from the mechanic at the shop
b. I read about the process.
c. I bought the required R-134a refill kits per the shop's suggestion.
d. I followed the instructions that are provided with these kits.
e. The kit does come with a pressure meter, which I used (along with gloves and safety goggles).
f. I connected the can to the low side, as they instruct you to.

So... as these are commercially available products that are sold to common mortals, are you telling me that it will "kill me" if I used it per the instructions? That these off-the-shelf products are a disaster waiting to happen? (such as gasoline, propane, ethanol, etc. if MISUSED)

Also, what the heck do you mean by ""...For anyone to fix it now the system will have to be pumped out and the crap you put in it is now hazard waste..."? What "crap"?

I used the recommended products as instructed by the mechanic and followed the instructions.

And by the way, the shop mechanic suggested this path as the alternative is to replace the compressor for over $1500... which is not worth the cost for this vehicle.

Whew that compressor must be gold plated.
Check this link.
http://www.autoacforum.com/

Well to start with it is not safe to add freon to an air cond system unless you have a proper low and high side gauge-recharging gauge set.
That wal mart want to be gauge does not tell you squat about the system pressure. One of the reasons why they are called death kits.
http://www.ackits.com/merchant2/merc...uct_Code=66773

http://www.ackits.com/merchant2/merc...e=DIY-STARTER1

http://www.ackits.com/merchant2/merc...ode=DIYADVANCE


Freon pressure in an air condition system that has a problem or overcharged can go over 500 lbs of pressure or 500 degrees of tempura.
Or in other words if something go wrong when you are trying to add freon and that pressure would run back in the little can it could blow up.
And if it does.
First thing if it does not blow your hand or head off it will freeze you than burn you like 500 lbs = 500 degrees of tempture.

Now about that stop leak crap and artic freeze freon.
Your quote=refrigerant w/dispenser). Bought R-134a refill kit at Pep-Boys (Interdynamics Stop Leak and Arctic Freeze

Artic freeze and a lot of blend freon contain propane /butane for a mixer.
Was it pure R-134a or a blend crap?
Propane in an air cond system can/will blow up.
Stop leak in a system messes the whole system up.
If you added stop leak or any blend freon you now have on messed up system that is in sad shape.
The blend and stop leak and who knows what kind of oil is in it makes for hazard waste. If you put that crap in your system.

Them wall mart /pep boys and aftermarket recharge death kits should be outlawed.
And yes they cause a system to blow up or even the whole car and can kill or injure you for sure.
Several years ago insurance companies run a test on that blend crap and if it leaked inside the passage compartment and hit a open flame would blow all of the windows out of the vehicle before it caught on fire.
They are not safe to use.
Any mechanic that would recommend them is not much of a mechanic.
If you do not want believe what I have to say about them.
Or For more info on it here is a link to some very good air cond professionals.
http://www.autoacforum.com/

[MT-2500]

Originally Posted by Flashfox

Sorry? What am I missing here?

a. I followed the lead from the mechanic at the shop
b. I read about the process.
c. I bought the required R-134a refill kits per the shop's suggestion.
d. I followed the instructions that are provided with these kits.
e. The kit does come with a pressure meter, which I used (along with gloves and safety goggles).
f. I connected the can to the low side, as they instruct you to.

So... as these are commercially available products that are sold to common mortals, are you telling me that it will "kill me" if I used it per the instructions? That these off-the-shelf products are a disaster waiting to happen? (such as gasoline, propane, ethanol, etc. if MISUSED)

Also, what the heck do you mean by ""...For anyone to fix it now the system will have to be pumped out and the crap you put in it is now hazard waste..."? What "crap"?

I used the recommended products as instructed by the mechanic and followed the instructions.

And by the way, the shop mechanic suggested this path as the alternative is to replace the compressor for over $1500... which is not worth the cost for this vehicle.

Well this link explains it real good .

http://www.imcool.com/articles/airco...erant_Fire.htm


MT

[coalminer]

Originally Posted by MT-2500

Well this link explains it real good .

http://www.imcool.com/articles/airco...erant_Fire.htm


MT

You are right in one respect about being dangerous, but that story was talking about the kit to retrofit a r12 system with 134a refrigerant, those kits come with adapters to adapt the r12 fittings to the 134 fittings, if you were to take those adapters and put the low side adapter on the high side hose and then try to charge it from there, you do have a chance to blow up the can.

But the original poster said they have a 95 Caravan which is already 134a, and when they upgraded to 134a they made the high and low pressure fittings different, so that there is no way to hook the can of refrigerant up to the high side fitting, so unless the engine is spinning backwards, there is no way that the low side of the system is going to achieve enough pressure to blow the can up.

One other thing, those cans of freon are also designed so that the bottom will blow out in case of overpressure, not the entire can.

[Flashfox]

Originally Posted by coalminer

You are right in one respect about being dangerous, but that story was talking about the kit to retrofit a r12 system with 134a refrigerant, those kits come with adapters to adapt the r12 fittings to the 134 fittings, if you were to take those adapters and put the low side adapter on the high side hose and then try to charge it from there, you do have a chance to blow up the can.

But the original poster said they have a 95 Caravan which is already 134a, and when they upgraded to 134a they made the high and low pressure fittings different, so that there is no way to hook the can of refrigerant up to the high side fitting, so unless the engine is spinning backwards, there is no way that the low side of the system is going to achieve enough pressure to blow the can up.

One other thing, those cans of freon are also designed so that the bottom will blow out in case of overpressure, not the entire can.

I just thought that I should post a follow-up with the results of my efforts.

I filled the A/C with R-134a and the it has been working fine since. I rechecked the pressure today and it was still in the blue area.

I also asked two different mechanics at different shops (one works for Chrysler) about the "dangers of filling-up your A/C system" and both mentioned that as long as you use R134a with your R134a system, and that you follow the instructions, you cannot damage your A/C system.

Mind you, there is an element of risk with almost everything you do on your car. I fully understood the risks involved and played it safe (gloves, goggles, etc.).

As these COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf) cans are sold to the general public, I find that the dire warnings of impeeding doom were a bit exagerated. If these cans really "destroyed" your A/C system, then why hasn't there been massive lawsuits... which would have essentially shut these companies down?

In my case, the risks were calculated as my A/C system has a "small leak" and two A/C shops quoted me around $1500 to fix it (i.e. replace the system).

This being the case, it was a win-win situation for me. I prefer filling it up once or twice a year as it is not worth the cost of replacing it.

[MT-2500]

Originally Posted by Flashfox

I just thought that I should post a follow-up with the results of my efforts.

I filled the A/C with R-134a and the it has been working fine since. I rechecked the pressure today and it was still in the blue area.

I also asked two different mechanics at different shops (one works for Chrysler) about the "dangers of filling-up your A/C system" and both mentioned that as long as you use R134a with your R134a system, and that you follow the instructions, you cannot damage your A/C system.

Mind you, there is an element of risk with almost everything you do on your car. I fully understood the risks involved and played it safe (gloves, goggles, etc.).

As these COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf) cans are sold to the general public, I find that the dire warnings of impeeding doom were a bit exagerated. If these cans really "destroyed" your A/C system, then why hasn't there been massive lawsuits... which would have essentially shut these companies down?

In my case, the risks were calculated as my A/C system has a "small leak" and two A/C shops quoted me around $1500 to fix it (i.e. replace the system).

This being the case, it was a win-win situation for me. I prefer filling it up once or twice a year as it is not worth the cost of replacing it.

There is no safe way you can recharge with one of them stop and go light one hose wal mart death gauges or kits.
There is only one safe and right way to check or add freon to a air condition system.
That is with a proper recharge air cond manifiold with a low and high side gauge.
http://www.ackits.com/merchant2/merc...uct_Code=66773

http://www.ackits.com/merchant2/merc...e=DIY-STARTER1

http://www.ackits.com/merchant2/merc...ode=DIYADVANCE

If you are going to do it at least get the proper and safe equipment to do it.

[MT-2500]

Originally Posted by coalminer

You are right in one respect about being dangerous, but that story was talking about the kit to retrofit a r12 system with 134a refrigerant, those kits come with adapters to adapt the r12 fittings to the 134 fittings, if you were to take those adapters and put the low side adapter on the high side hose and then try to charge it from there, you do have a chance to blow up the can.

But the original poster said they have a 95 Caravan which is already 134a, and when they upgraded to 134a they made the high and low pressure fittings different, so that there is no way to hook the can of refrigerant up to the high side fitting, so unless the engine is spinning backwards, there is no way that the low side of the system is going to achieve enough pressure to blow the can up.

One other thing, those cans of freon are also designed so that the bottom will blow out in case of overpressure, not the entire can.

There is no safe way to recharge with a recharge manifiold and watching the low and high side pressures wbefore and when you recarge.
http://www.ackits.com/merchant2/merc...e=DIY-STARTER1

If a air cond system is messed up or overcharged it can reach over 500 lbs of pressure on high and sometimes low side.

It does not make any difference whether the can or can bottom or lines or hoses condenser blows.
When it blows it will freeze you at first and then burn you.
500 lbs of pressure = 500 degrees of tempture.

[Flashfox]

Originally Posted by MT-2500

There is no safe way to recharge with a recharge manifiold and watching the low and high side pressures wbefore and when you recarge.
http://www.ackits.com/merchant2/merc...e=DIY-STARTER1

If a air cond system is messed up or overcharged it can reach over 500 lbs of pressure on high and sometimes low side.

It does not make any difference whether the can or can bottom or lines or hoses condenser blows. When it blows it will freeze you at first and then burn you. 500 lbs of pressure = 500 degrees of tempture.

No question about the "potential risks", but after reading your postings I wonder why we are even allowed to fill our gas tanks or check the coolant levels in our radiator... both potentially dangerous endeavours. (I sure don't want to be boiled alive or blown to bits).

a. They made it simple for common mortals to refill the A/C (color coded, goof-proof valves, inability to connect the can to the high side, etc.). Now don't tell me that they did all of this for the "professional mechanics"!

b. These refill cans are COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE to anyone. If they were a threath, they would have been pulled long ago.

c. If you follow the instructions, the chances of a mess-up are minimal at most.

d. IF (a very important >> IF <<) the probabilities were that high that this could cause you serious injury and/or severe damage to your A/C system, then the number and value of lawsuits would have been such that they would have closed these companies down a long time ago. How many have been filed?

IMHO, telling people to be careful is important. Suggesting the right measurement tools is also very much appreciated. However, I do take issue with your automatic doom-and-gloom view. Telling them that they will ruin their lives and their A/C by using these cans is just plain overkill.

[MT-2500]

Originally Posted by Flashfox

No question about the "potential risks", but after reading your postings I wonder why we are even allowed to fill our gas tanks or check the coolant levels in our radiator... both potentially dangerous endeavours. (I sure don't want to be boiled alive or blown to bits).

a. They made it simple for common mortals to refill the A/C (color coded, goof-proof valves, inability to connect the can to the high side, etc.). Now don't tell me that they did all of this for the "professional mechanics"!

b. These refill cans are COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE to anyone. If they were a threath, they would have been pulled long ago.

c. If you follow the instructions, the chances of a mess-up are minimal at most.

d. IF (a very important >> IF <<) the probabilities were that high that this could cause you serious injury and/or severe damage to your A/C system, then the number and value of lawsuits would have been such that they would have closed these companies down a long time ago. How many have been filed?

IMHO, telling people to be careful is important. Suggesting the right measurement tools is also very much appreciated. However, I do take issue with your automatic doom-and-gloom view. Telling them that they will ruin their lives and their A/C by using these cans is just plain overkill.

QUIT TWISTING MY WORDS AROUND.
I stated that there is no safe or proper way you can add freon or recharge a air condition system with out the proper recharging gauges with the low and high side gauge.
The wal mart stop and go low side gauge does not get the job done.
I did not say the R-134 freon cans are dangerous.
It is the way people add freon without watching the high and low side that can get dangerous or overfilling the system that can get dangerous.
A overfilled or bad system can reach pressure of over 500 lbs.
Also putting that wal mart recharge death kit with all of that stop leak and who knows what kind of oil or if it is pure R-134 freon. Is a no no.
Just because the sell the stuff does not make it safe.
But you can always sue if it blows your hand off or puts your eyes out or injures some one beside you.
If they had your best interest in mind they would outlaw them death kits.
Also the use of blends that contain a butane mixer.
If you are going to do it do it right and safe.
Get the proper equipment to do it.
http://www.ackits.com/merchant2/merc...uct_Code=66773
Just because you got a recharge kit and talked to two mechanics you are trying to tell me how to charge air cond system. You have a lot to learn.
I have been charging air condition systems for over 45 years and 25 years dealer line mechanic.
I have learned and know all of the dangers of servicing air cond systems and I will continue to warn people of them.
They can take it or leave it but they can not say I did not tell them.
MT

[Flashfox]

Ok... enough is enough. Last post in this sequence ;-)

I DO respect your experience and I DID follow your lead and purchased both a gauge kit and an automotive A/C manual from Haynes. I am NOT a specialist hence the reason I post messages on these forums seeking help from specialists.

Maybe I didn't like the "delivery method"... but your message did get across (sideways, with burrs and spikes)

[MT-2500]

Originally Posted by Flashfox

Ok... enough is enough. Last post in this sequence ;-)

I DO respect your experience and I DID follow your lead and purchased both a gauge kit and an automotive A/C manual from Haynes. I am NOT a specialist hence the reason I post messages on these forums seeking help from specialists.

Maybe I didn't like the "delivery method"... but your message did get across (sideways, with burrs and spikes)

Well I am sorry about being harsh or cruel or rough on the edges about it but I just tell it like it is.
But I glad to hear you got the gauge kit.
And the manual has good information in it.
And here is a link to a good air cond forum.
Run by air cond perfossionals . TRB and Chip and others know there stuff.
http://www.autoacforum.com/
Feel free to ask them anything about it.
They will point you in the right direstion.
If your air cond is working but just leaking off it might pay to check it out for the leak.
Lot of times it is just a hose or seal or expansion valve.
That 1500$ they quoted you sounds kinda high.
They make leak dye for the air cond system that helps spot leaks.
Just add the dye and drive a couple days and the put the light on it and spot the leak.
Good luck MT.