The developing mystery of chassis #022...

[Peloton25]

Ok - so most of you are thinking "What mystery? Isn't that Wyclef Jean's F1?" but I am beginning to believe that we are wrong on the chassis number of Wyclef's car, and have been all along.

I first began to question this when I spoke to Thomas Bscher at the LA Auto Show. Mr Bscher mentioned to me that evening he had sold his car to a man named Miles Collier which was not a name that was immediately recognizable to me. I also mentioned Wyclef Jean's name to Mr Bscher and that wasn't one he seemed to recognize either. You will recall that Mr Bscher was certain that his road car had been #022 - also confirmed in this scanned article - 3rd column of text - and informed me that he still owns GTR #22R, and finally that his Veyron will be chassis #022 as well, in keeping with the trend.

Had I been thinking I would have looked the new name up the moment I got home that night, but I failed to do that and let it slip my mind. You'll also notice this wasn't something I bothered to mention in my post about meeting Mr Bscher. I recall thinking at the time that Mr Collier must have been a middleman involved in the sale of #022 between Bscher and Jean and really thought nothing of it since a lot of times there are two and three such middlemen involved in the transaction on a McLaren F1. Shame on me really...

So, months go by and on April 20th I happen to be at Borders (book store) with a friend who was talking to an old co-worker forever it seemed. I got bored and started picking up magazines that I don't normally read and flipping through the pages. One such magazine was the May issue of "Sports Car Market" - a monthly that covers the collector car market both here in the USA and around the world. Ten pages into the magazine I spot this photo which measures 3.25" x 2.5" on the center of the editor, Keith Martin's, monthly column. My eye was instantly drawn to a McLaren F1 I did not recognize :22yikes: and I don't think any of you will either. (If you do, you've been keeping things from us )


Clickable

I read through the column (which had little if anything to say about the F1) and there was the same name I had discounted months before - Miles Collier - listed as the host of a 3-day event called "Connoisseurship 2006". Apparently it was a gathering of 50 very serious collectors and presentations were given by Collier and several others on the state of the collector car market. One other notable presenter mentioned in the article was Doug Nye. His name should be reconizable to most here, as it's his name on the cover of "Driving Ambition". Anyway - there was very little in the article about where the event was held but it did list Mr Collier as the host and given that Mr Bscher was confident he had sold his car to him, I figured that the F1 in the photo was his. Of course that would mean the F1 in the photo is also #022.

When I got home that night I discovered that Miles Collier and the Collier family have quite a legacy in the motoring world. Miles runs the Collier Auto Museum which is dedicated to his father and uncles who were well known amatuer racers in the 1930's. The museum has been referred to as the finest collection of sports cars in America, possibly the world, containing "a sparkling collection of 75 classic sports cars from every decade of the 20th century" - this was where the Connoisseurship event referred to in the article was held. Most of the cars (approx 50) in the Collier Museum were purchased from the Briggs Cunningham collection in 1987. That in itself is a very interesting story, but at the moment I can't seem to find the article I read describing that transaction.

I have found differing information on the status of the museum unfortunately. Several places reference that the museum is closed to the public and used only for private events, while others seem to suggest its open. I haven't contacted the museum yet - still on my "things to do" list, but I plan to get that done soon and will update this thread with the info I find.

Back to the story of #022 here. Besides Mr Bscher's own words confirming who he sold his car to, there was also this snippet in the Times Online F1 -vs- Veyron article that I had previously glazed over:

"Thomas Bscher, the suave former banker who is now Bugatti’s president, used to own an F1. He drove it to work every day for two years from his home in Cologne to his office in Frankfurt before selling it in 2003 to an American collector Miles Collier."

So, taking that statement into account, if Bscher didn't sell his F1 to Collier until 2003, then I see no way possible that Wyclef could have displayed the car in the USA as early as August 2002 (Funkmaster Flex car show) if his car was really chassis #022. It would have to be another chassis number.

Now of course there's always conflicting information to take into account...

gerd mentions chassis #022 is Wyclef's without question in this post, and regardless of his stubbornness on some topics, the information he provides here has almost always been spot on.

Also, our old friend XOTech states the same information in this post as well, and he was almost never wrong himself.

It seems we are now left with a bit of a mystery in regards to chassis #022. We can be certain that it was Bscher's originally - that doesn't seem to be open to debate. What is unclear at this point is whether it's now the green F1 in the photo above or if it was truly Wyclef's as others claim. Anyone who can conclusively prove things one way or the other will be my hero, but for now I will be working from the assumption that #022 is in the Collier museum and that Wyclef must have owned another car instead.

Chris and I have been hashing this out for a while over PMs and he seems convinced of exactly the opposite of what I believe (so typical of him ). He seems certain Wyclef's car was indeed #022 and that the green F1 in the Collier Museum must wear a different chassis number. That's certainly possible I guess, but doesn't make a lot of sense given time line and the two statements sourced from Bscher himself on who he sold chassis #022 to and when.

I guess it should also be noted here that to the best of both our knowledge that Wyclef is no longer the owner of whichever F1 it was that he had. Neither of us seem to know where that car went, or whom it's new owner might be, but he seems to have sold the car within the past year or so.

>8^)
ER

[Peloton25]

Before the debate begins to rage (if at all), here's the few paragraphs that mention the F1 in the editor's column:

Super Car Du Jour

But not all cars will appreciate. At the Collier Seminar, (Simon) Kidston led a class on the future of today's supercars. We had, on site, a McLaren F1, a Ferrari Enzo and F40, a Porsche 959 and Carrera GT, a Jag XJ220, and a Bugatti EB110 and Veyron. It made for a handsome garage. In my opinion, these flavor-of-the-month cars have -- with a couple of exceptions -- nowhere to go but down in value.

The McLaren is a surefire blue-chip collectible, with technological excellence backed up by true competition heritage. Winning at LeMans is a nice "occupational experience" to have in your marque resume.

And though the 959 looks like a 911 with a rather tail-heavy body kit grafted on, it will stay strong. This is partly because it was such a successful rally car, partly because it was a highpoint in automotive technology, and because a large number of Porsche fanatics will always look to it as an icon.

The F40 stands the same way. LM versions had some successes, and visually, with its outrageous Plymouth Superbird wing, the car was the first bad-boy Ferrari to come along since the Daytona.

But here the water gets murkier. The Carrera GT looks like the Boxster from the front, has no competition history, and is being built in huge numbers (over 1,200 at last count). These factors alone will guarantee that no one cares in the long run.

The Enzo will become as unloved as the F50 is, once the model supplanting it. the "Enzo X-treme," hits the road. The EB110 is just a goofy afterthought, a made-up car with a made-up brand who's only redeeming value is its rarity.

The XJ220, arguably launched with the worst PR campaign in history, as well as a raft of Jaguar lawsuits against disgruntled customers, continues to be curvaceous, huge, and irrelevant. Finally, rather than concentrating on the Passats that paid the bills, VW's ex-chairman, Ferdinand Piech, managed to squander enormous resources on the new Veyron, a car that will never be more than a collecting afterthought, no matter how prodigious its performance.

-Keith Martin

My sincere apologies to Enzo and Veyron lovers everywhere.

>8^)
ER

[bucciali]

Originally Posted by Peloton25

<...>a few paragraphs that mention the F1 in the editor's column <....>

The McLaren is a surefire blue-chip collectible, with technological excellence backed up by true competition heritage. Winning at LeMans is a nice "occupational experience" to have in your marque resume.

If those 50 or so gentlemen with the green entrance passes really are serious car collectors, I think, with this remark of Mr. Keith Martin, the market for F1's just got a bit tighter...

Ontopic: a very interesting mystery. Things won't be cleared up, until we see the chassis # plaque, I reckon. There might be a couple of things in the story, that we can built on, the fact that Bscher knows he sold #022 to Collier as the most apparent. But you never know if Collier decided to sell this F1 on and bought another one later. Gerd Petrik might be certain that it's 022, but do we know whether he actually saw the car and it's plaque? From his little list of facts, it's obvious he was quite involved in the F1 market at the time, but if you hear this from a salesman who heard it from another who heard it....you catch my drift. (I just can't imagine Gerd being friendly with Wyclef but who knows.....)

Shall we start the debate on the colours?

1. Erik, couldn't you have asked Bscher what colour his 022 was, when he sold it?
2. The off-factory colour of 022 was "Genesis Dark Blue". The car in the picture definately isn't. Did Bscher repaint it? Did Collier?

Interesting........

[Peloton25]

Originally Posted by bucciali

Gerd Petrik might be certain that it's 022, but do we know whether he actually saw the car and it's plaque? From his little list of facts, it's obvious he was quite involved in the F1 market at the time, but if you hear this from a salesman who heard it from another who heard it....you catch my drift. (I just can't imagine Gerd being friendly with Wyclef but who knows.....)

Well for starters, don't confuse the contributor here with the username gerd as being "Gerd Petrik". That's definitely not the case from what I can tell.

Ontopic: a very interesting mystery. Things won't be cleared up, until we see the chassis # plaque, I reckon.

Agreed, unfortunately...

There might be a couple of things in the story, that we can built on, the fact that Bscher knows he sold #022 to Collier as the most apparent.

Yeah - like I said, I don't think there's anyway someone can discredit that point.

But you never know if Collier decided to sell this F1 on and bought another one later.

I have thought about this possibility myself, but the 2003 sale date of #022 from Bscher to Collier still wouldn't allow for Collier to have sold that car to Wyclef, since Wyclef had already had his F1 for almost a year or more by that point.

Shall we start the debate on the colours?

1. Erik, couldn't you have asked Bscher what colour his 022 was, when he sold it?

I honestly didn't think to ask him about colors at all. At the time I thought the car was sold "as-is" to Wyclef and then he had the interior changed to suit his own tastes, which was certainly something that car needed. Afterwards I was kicking myself for not at least asking Mr Bscher what he was thinking on the green/yellow interior combination. Possibly if I had pryed into that aspect at the time I would have learned something new right then and there.

2. The off-factory colour of 022 was "Genesis Dark Blue". The car in the picture definately isn't. Did Bscher repaint it? Did Collier?

That's a good question too, and part of what does not make this an open and shut case. Wyclef's car actually looks to be a color one might name "Genesis Dark Blue" even.

Interesting........

Interesting indeed.

>8^)
ER

[bucciali]

Originally Posted by Peloton25

Well for starters, don't confuse the contributor here with the username gerd as being "Gerd Petrik". That's definitely not the case from what I can tell.

>8^)
ER

Ahh. My bad.

[mini magic]

Ok. The reason i don't think this is 022 is that there is now ANOTHER new McLaren in the US! 016 is now in the US too. It is the latest McLaren to be brought over. Miles Collier has NEVER owned an F1. He is sort of like a middle man and has been involved in many F1 transactions and i believe this is 016 just about to go to its new owner. I don't know who the new owner is but its not Miles Collier. On the old (and new i assume) Show and Display list, 022 is listed under someone other than Wyclf BUT the person who its listed under is one of Wyclef's assocciates. Trust me, 022 went to Wyclef. I belive that 022 was sold through Collier to Wyclef and that 016 was sold to someone through Collier too and he just happened to have it when this thing happened.


Just my 0.02


Sorry for not telling you this sooner Erik, i just wanted to see if you had found any additional info while i had to confirm this story


btw, you ruined my scan of that pic It was better quality when i sent it to you!

[Peloton25]

For starters - you never sent me a scan of that pic. That's the original image I made from a photo I took of the magazine - not one of my better attempts to be honest. Send me the scan and I will replace the image.

Secondly, are you sure you are not thinking of Miles Irish, instead of Miles Collier, as the man you reference being a middle man on several F1 transactions. I believe you have the two men confused here.

As for the news on #016, that's pretty cool and you may even be right that the car in the photo is #016 and that Wyclef did have #022. How about some photos of the chassis plaques that bucciali was looking for though?

>8^)
ER

[mini magic]

Originally Posted by Peloton25

For starters - you never sent me a scan of that pic. That's the original image I made from a photo I took of the magazine - not one of my better attempts to be honest. Send me the scan and I will replace the image.

You sure about that? I sent that and the pic of the GT that you wanted

Originally Posted by Peloton25

Secondly, are you sure you are not thinking of Miles Irish, instead of Miles Collier, as the man you reference being a middle man on several F1 transactions. I believe you have the two men confused here.

Yes, thats my bad. I just realized and was about to correct myself. Sorry

Originally Posted by Peloton25

As for the news on #016, that's pretty cool and you may even be right that the car in the photo is #016 and that Wyclef did have #022. How about some photos of the chassis plaques that bucciali was looking for though?

I'm working on it



btw, you're up early

[Peloton25]

Originally Posted by mini magic

You sure about that? I sent that and the pic of the GT that you wanted

I guess it helps if I actually open the attachments when you send me an email.

>8^)
ER

[mini magic]

hehe

[mini magic]

I just realized there is ANOTHER new McLaren hiding somewhere in the US....011. Yep, thats right, 011. If it is 011, its a shame because it was stunning in blue

[Peloton25]

The car in the photo appears to have a road car's nose to me. It also has the standard 17" wheels, and only one car with the HDF Kit (#023 - and really it's not a full kit on that car) still wears the 17's from what I have seen. I don't think we have to worry about this being #011 as I can't imagine anyone would respray that car again, and I can't see anyone paying to have the HDF Kit removed either. (Edit: I see Le Man has added these same observations already in another thread.)

Nice to hear that #011 might be here though. Love that car.

>8^)
ER

[mini magic]

This is crazy. I can't believe we can't work out which car this is


As i said in the other thread, it guess its possible to unfit an hd kit but i doubt anyone has the guts to do that. I'm sure its a big chunk 'o change to do something like that

[Peloton25]

Plus you would more than likely have to pay a premium when purchasing a car that already has it fitted.

>8^)
ER

[tdc911]

Originally Posted by mini magic

This is crazy. I can't believe we can't work out which car this is

I can't believe you both have/had never heard of Miles Collier before.