CivicSiRacer; auto-x suspeneion setup tips...?

[SilverY2KCivic]

CivicSiRacer, with you having quite a bit experience in the area of it, when I get into auto-x VERY soon here, what can I do to my current suspension setup to handle as good as I possibly can and/or improve my times?

My current set up is as follows:
Tein "SS" coilovers (448lbs front, 224lbs rear spring rates)
Neuspeed 4-point front strut tower bar
generic lower rear tiebar
OEM Civic Si rear swaybar

I guess my question would go more towards my Teins than anything else. Does corner weighting help in auto-x? Also, should I have the rears set stiffer than the fronts? Or would I be fine with them equal? And if not equal, how much stiffer should one be than the other? Right now for my daily driving purposes, I have the rears set to 8 and the fronts to 9 (1 being stiffest and 16 being softest for the ride adjustment) Besides buying anything else (pretty tapped out for the time being since I got the Teins this past week), what would you suggest for me? Thanks.

[CivicSiRacer]

I know you prolly don't want to hear this but spending $1000 on a nice coilover system will prolly get you .5-1 seconds on a 60 second course for an average driver. Spend $225 on a driving school or $50 on a novice school and you should gain 4-8 seconds on the same course.

People have this "drag racing" mentality when modding their car for autocross. Thinking all these mods will make you faster where in fact it will if you are a good driver. But more mods will bump you into harder classes (even a simple intake) and then you will be or might be enjoying yourself. Some people get frustrated if they don't win.

A prime example was this weekend with someone in a Nissan 200SX. He was pulling a consistent 35.xxx second the whole day. In my car I ran a 30.0. He asked me to drive his car so he can see what he was doing wrong. Even driving with one hand, while pointing where I was looking, and never driving his car before I ran a 31.xxx. He was flabbergasted

[SilverY2KCivic]

Thanks for the reply CivicSiRacer. I didn't get the Teins because I thought they would improve my times. In fact, I haven't yet raced a Solo event, so I wouldn't begin to know my times, LOL! I got for the functionality of it for the time being. I wanted to lower my car, but I wanted to do it the right way first time around. I figured by the time I shell out for a set of Ground Controls, and some Koni Yellows to match them with, I'd be spending as much if not MORE than I spent on my Teins, PLUS I get better control over the adjustablity of the ride. Yes you can adjust Koni Yellows, but I'm quite sure you can't get them to feel as comfortable or close to stock feel when set to soft, as the Teins can do, nor adjust them as much. Can't beat a precisely matched spring to shock.

I don't have a drag racing mentality on it, if so I'd have every bar known to man, including an in-car floor bar (of which I know someone that has ALL that stuff, yet doesn't even road race). I just have the bars I think I'd need for the meantime. I've mountain carved for a while, and even before I got my Teins, my car felt pretty balanced to me, and I've driven other types of cars around auto-x type courses before for test pruposes, and minus the oversteer that a RWD car has, my car feels almost as balanced as I'd say a BMW 325i around curves. Understeer isn't very much, is has good control, and the Teins seemed to have completely gotten rid of the "snap" my car used to have when I'd come out of a tight turn/curve real quick, when setting it back straight. I just wanted to know when I do get into it with my car real soon here, what can I do with my current set up to further fine tune it?

I do know.understand that stuff like this is 90% driver, but I gotta be able to stay on the road first, true a good driver can even make a crappy car perform decently, but I know my car, and it's limits, and think this stuff I have is nessacery for me to achieve good times. But I have a lot of practice for experience ahead of me, that I'm well aware of.

[CivicSiRacer]

Actually I thought the same thing as you before I took an Evolution School. I thought I knew how to drive and how to handle my car.

We did 3 baseline runs, without our instructor. Ran my best of 36.xxx and said that was great couldn't do it any better. Then the instructor got in my car and gave me several pointers, what lines to change etc.

Ended up with a 34.xxx! I shaved 2 seconds off my time on a 30 second course. That's 4 seconds on a 60 second course and I would have won my class back in January/March by 2 seconds!

[mrnabeehhasan]

Not knowing much about autox I see that the competitors can have tremendous amounts invested in the suspension. Being on the poorer side, would something like an aftermarket wheel or slightly better tire bump you up in the competition brackets?

Also with these different tuned suspensions, which have you noticed to perform better? Or maybe I should be refering to driving styles. I know some that have the RWD like the drift and feel it is an accomplished technique allowing faster driving. But do you notice a typical style that those with the fastest times share?

[SilverY2KCivic]

I'd have to agree with you there, on that CivicSi.

The times I've driven auto-x similar course, I was with an instructor, or pro-racer actually, in the passenger seat, but the drive was for pure test drive purposes only, even though we were told to push each car to it's limit. The instructor would tell us what lines to take, and one one of the drives I did, the instructor actually drove the course for us before we got to do it, showing exactly what lines to take, and how to take them. But it's nothing a decent class can offer by any means. But none-the-less, it still gave me the feel for what it would be like, and such. Test drives for C&D rock!

Anywho, I want to do a few races, then see where I sit, and then spend on a school. Good to see where you stand, rather than take the school right off the bat. I'd like to see where I stand on my own un-aidded first. Then I'll get into seriously shaving seconds off my time.

All in all, it's not that we thought/think we know how the handle or drive our cars, we DO know how, a school can just make us better at it.

[CivicSiRacer]

Originally posted by mrnabeehhasan
Not knowing much about autox I see that the competitors can have tremendous amounts invested in the suspension. Being on the poorer side, would something like an aftermarket wheel or slightly better tire bump you up in the competition brackets?

Also with these different tuned suspensions, which have you noticed to perform better? Or maybe I should be refering to driving styles. I know some that have the RWD like the drift and feel it is an accomplished technique allowing faster driving. But do you notice a typical style that those with the fastest times share?

For stock class you don't need anything. For stock you can do:
cat back exhaust
aftermarket shocks (same height as stock)
front sway bar
K&N filter element
spark plugs
spark plug wires
OEM sized rotors
any fluid
any brake pad
DOT racing tires on stock sized wheels

So changing your wheels will bump you. I just recommend autocrossing your car as is. Stick with street tires, leave it in 2nd gear, and I recommend turning on the A/C which will make you drive smoother cause it takes HP away from you to get crazy with

[CivicSiRacer]

Originally posted by SilverY2KCivic
I'd have to agree with you there, on that CivicSi.

The times I've driven auto-x similar course, I was with an instructor, or pro-racer actually, in the passenger seat, but the drive was for pure test drive purposes only, even though we were told to push each car to it's limit. The instructor would tell us what lines to take, and one one of the drives I did, the instructor actually drove the course for us before we got to do it, showing exactly what lines to take, and how to take them. But it's nothing a decent class can offer by any means. But none-the-less, it still gave me the feel for what it would be like, and such. Test drives for C&D rock!

Anywho, I want to do a few races, then see where I sit, and then spend on a school. Good to see where you stand, rather than take the school right off the bat. I'd like to see where I stand on my own un-aidded first. Then I'll get into seriously shaving seconds off my time.

All in all, it's not that we thought/think we know how the handle or drive our cars, we DO know how, a school can just make us better at it.

Yeah I recommend doing some autocrosses before a school. You will be amazed on how much time you shave with the school. On the average I was 2-3 seconds behind several guys in other classes who were always placing 1st. After the autocross school I became 3-4 seconds faster Instead of being top 10-20 for PAX I am now top 3

[SilverY2KCivic]

Sweet!

I see mentions of mods and classes a couple posts above, I'm guessing my car would no longer qualify for stock class, as I have aftermarket wheels/tires, and then my suspension isn't set at stock height, and I'm unsure if coilovers automatically bump you or not. I'm getting the SCCA rulebook, so I'll be able to tell from that, but till then, based on my mods, what class would you say I'd most likely be in? My suspension mods are in my orignal post above, plus I roll on a set of "15 Rota Circuit 8's wrapped in 195/50 Kumho Ecsta 711's, and engine wise all I have is a short ram intake. No body modifications other than stuff I've painted (front grill, OEM side skirts, addition of mesh grill inserts).

[CivicSiRacer]

Originally posted by SilverY2KCivic
Sweet!

I see mentions of mods and classes a couple posts above, I'm guessing my car would no longer qualify for stock class, as I have aftermarket wheels/tires, and then my suspension isn't set at stock height, and I'm unsure if coilovers automatically bump you or not. I'm getting the SCCA rulebook, so I'll be able to tell from that, but till then, based on my mods, what class would you say I'd most likely be in? My suspension mods are in my orignal post above, plus I roll on a set of "15 Rota Circuit 8's wrapped in 195/50 Kumho Ecsta 711's, and engine wise all I have is a short ram intake. No body modifications other than stuff I've painted (front grill, OEM side skirts, addition of mesh grill inserts).

For stock class you are allowed:
cat back exhaust
front sway bar
DOT racing tires on stock sized wheels (within 1/4" offset)
brake pads
brake rotors same as OEM
K&N filter element
aftermarket shocks same height as stock
spark plug wires
spark plugs
4/5 point harness
any fluids

So you would be in STS which is Street Touring Street Tires a class made specifically for sport compacts on street tires only.
Somewhat a breakdown:
140 or better treadwear
limit of 225 wide tires & 7.5" wheels
intake
exhaust
headers
pulleys
spark plug wires
spark plugs
4/5 point harness
front seats must recline
any aftermarket suspension which attaches to original locations
strut bars that go longitudinally across the car
sway bars
brake pads
brake rotors same size as stock
stainless steel brake lines
NO TRANNY WORK except for short shifter
NO INTERNAL engine work (cams, springs, retainers, etc.)
body kits are legal except for weight saving items (example carbon fiber hood), but carbon fiber lips are legal
racing pedals or overlays
There's also an excursion list of cars allowed in STS:
All FWD 1.8T Audis/VWs/Saabs/Volvos - no modifications to boost
Subaru 2.5RS
Nissan 200SX SER
Nissan Sentra SER
Mazda GTX

[SilverY2KCivic]

Thanks for the info, CivicSi.

What class do you run in, and would I be at a disadvantage by running in the STS class? Not much I can do to change it, but realistically speaking...

[CivicSiRacer]

Originally posted by SilverY2KCivic
Thanks for the info, CivicSi.

What class do you run in, and would I be at a disadvantage by running in the STS class? Not much I can do to change it, but realistically speaking...

I'm in STS. You will be at a disadvantage in any class your first year or two autocrossing. What you want to do is get as much seat time as you can. Do competition runs, do fun-runs, ride with someone else (by asking), ask someone to ride in the car with you.

We only get 4 competition runs, but then I buy 2 fun-runs so now i have a total of 12 runs. Then at the end of the day we have "club runs" (although rememebr each region is different) so I will run some more. THen sometimes I also ask to ride in other "good drivers" cars.

Don't be afraid to ask questions...