CCRM and Radiator Fans

[wiswind]

Reposting in its own thread.

Quoting CoachKarl
"
Concerning this CCRM gizmo. I noticed in other posts that you replaced it. I have a situation on my 95, 3.8 178K miles, where, during the summer, and for the past "many", driving to the beach in above 90 degree weather, the temp gauge nearly pegs. It goes clear into the "N" of "normal"! I was wondering, if my "high" radiator fan setting was not working. Over the last few years this has always been the case. I thought I licked this problem when I replaced the radiator, then when I put on an aux trans cooler, but, the problem persists, I guessed this was a sign of old age, but, in hind site, I've driven worse in years past through death valley with no hint of an engine heat problem. I now think I know whats wrong. . . . How do I test that 230 degree setting? Golly, a real shop manual would be very handy now."

I replaced my CCRM for the problem of the radiator fans NOT coming ON except when the A/C was on.
This solved the problem, and the fans work fine now.
One would think that the engine would stay cool when the vehicle is moving, as that would cause air to flow over the radiator.

Another possible cause for an engine running hot could be the water pump.
I do not know if it happens on the windstar (still have the original water pump in my '96 at 165K miles), but I have read about the impellers inside a water pump wearing away, so that the pump is spinning fine, no leaks, but not moving enough water.

[CoachKarl]

Thankyou Wiswind,

I've replaced the waterpump twice. I used to think that THAT was where the antifreeze on my garage floor came from.

I am more suspicious of the fact that water here in the southeast coast is tainted with alot of calcium. When I lived in NE USA, I used to mix antifreeze with tap water, and I contined this practice when I moved here. I managed to utterly clog the original radiator on this car through routine maintenance. I would buy a gallon of antifreeze. mix a gallon from the tap, and pour it in. This rig overheated badly one trip. When I pulled out the original radiator, I could barely pucker and blow through the whole radiator! Now I buy distilled water to mix or buy premixed stuff. My question is . . . could my high temp problem be caused by a calcium buildup inside the block itself? ! ? Is there some product to "melt" calcium deposits?
100K miles later, I still have the same fresh spot of antifreeze, on the garage floor every morning after the car is used. (I now suspect timing belt cover, but HEY!, the timing belt's an issue I'll address 100K mi from now.) I'm taking this rig north again in 6 weeks. The goal being my bodily immersion for the whole family in all five of the Great Lakes.

Karl

[wiswind]

Well, Lake Michigan is in the 40's degree F range right now, and I am sure that Superior is colder..... So don't stay in for long.

I don't have the experience to give you a good answer to your question about deposits.
I would ask how the heater works.
I am guessing that you have replaced the thermostat, and you would have noticed any significant deposits around there when you did that.

If you are leaking coolant.....it is "possible" that maybe air is getting in when you are running the car on a long trip.
Air in the cooling system can cause the engine to run hot, and even overheat.
If enough coolant leaks out during the "hot cycle" then when the cool cycle comes, when coolant normally is drawn in from the overflow bottle, maybe air is drawn in through the same leak that the coolant comes out.
If this is happening, you would be able to find air in the system by removing the radiator cap (when the engine is cold) and you would see air in there.

This is different from you finding air under the radiator cap after flushing the system or doing other work on the coolant system, as it is normal to find air there for a few days, while the air trapped in the system "burps" it's way out.

When you are cruising down the highway, the radiator fans normally do not run, as there is air being forced in through the radiator.

It is when you are at low speeds and stopped that things heat up and need the fans.
In fact, I have noticed that the engine stays cooler when stopped, if I have the A/C running, as that will cycle the fans on as the compressor cycles on and off, and not waiting for things to get hot to cycle the fans on.
I have often thought about putting a switch on the dash so that I can decide when to cycle the fans ON.
But then, I am sure that I would drive off and forget that they are on........

Before you beat yourself up about the tap water, stop and realize that MANY people are doing the same thing.
I also would not be surprised if a number of shops are also doing that, as distilled water costs more money than tap water.

[CoachKarl]

ooH Wiswind, can't wait till morning, and pull off that radiator cap. I'm with you on this "air drawn in" angle. What if what I am experiencing goes as follows. I drive a half hour or more, coolant constantly leaks out. I stop and turn off the car, and a little more leaking coolant forms "the usual silver dollar sized puddle", then . . . the engine cools and draws in air through the same hole the coolant leaks out?!? This car must be topped off with 16 oz coolant every two months. (My other car never needs coolant added) Golly I hope this isn't the timing cover gasket. Ya know, this thing stopped leaking after I replaced the head gaskets for almost a year. The leak comes from above the Oil filter somewhere, what about that silly steel radiator return pipe that goes into the waterpump? Maybe thats the problem! Yes! that would be easy to fix! Sorry, rambling here. Hope this helps somebody. I still want to know about this 2 stage fan CCRM thing, and how to test the "hi speed" fan setting.

Yeah, 40 degrees C, that was the temperature here today. I'll preserve a mental image of the sweat dripping from brim of my hard hat today, for taking that Lake Huron plunge.

Thank you again.

Karl

[wiswind]

The lakes are coldest at Superior, and warmer as you go toward lake Ontario.
They also pick up polution as they go.
You will experience the vast difference between 40 degrees C and 40 degrees F.

I am guessing that you replaced your head gaskets before you moved to calcium water changes.
If not, I am SURE that you would have noticed any significant build up of scale during that repair.

If your heater runs HOT, I would expect that your engine is OK, as I would expect that to become restricted before your engine.

Another thing to check.....thermostat....and the 2 temperature sensors.
1 is for the PCM, and the other is for the temp gauge in the dash.
I have a picture posted that shows which is which.
If the one for the PCM is not sending the correct information, then that would cause the fans not to come on due to engine temperature, although they should still cycle on and off when the A/C is on.
I can also see how calcium scale, or other crud build up on the sensor could insulate it, and cause it to not sense the water temperature.

I bought a "ScanGauge" that plugs into the OBDII port in the passenger compartment. It was about $129.
It is a generic code reader.
The nice thing about this unit is that you can keep it plugged in while you drive, and it will show you a number of readings, as the PCM sees them....including engine coolant temperature.
This makes it a bit of a troubleshooting tool, to check out some of the sensors, etc.
The link to their website is www.scangauge.com

You can also use it to see the maximum speed that your teenager drove the car!!!

[CoachKarl]

Thank you, Wiswind.

Yeah, two temp sensors. That threw me for a month or so, just after I blew the bypass hose, and warped the heads. For a while I had no temp gauge. I replaced the CRM one, as it was the only one mentioned in the Haynes manual. Closer inspection of the wiring diagram lead me to the correct / dashboard sensor. The problem turned out to be a loose connector on the sensor itself. (probably due to the heat from the catastrophic failure) Crimping/dilectric grease have the gauge working since. I mention calcium buildup, only because I had to replace a radiator in this rig once already. This overheating issue had been going on for years. I replaced the RAD because the first year the van started to overheat, I, 1. Dumped in some de-scaler, and drove the car as stated on the de-scaler bottle, 2. Pulled off the top / bottom hose (including thermostat) 3. Wrapped a rag around a garden hose and blew water through the block (top to bottom, bottom to top) as well as the radiator (ditto). I chanced to blow throught the radiator with my mouth for good measure, and felt backpressure, and only a wheeze coming from the cool water side. I got a flashlight and shone it though the rad and saw (Iron and Calcium?) Clogging most of the tubes. I bought and replace the RAD and things improved tremendously. However. Here in GA. when the air temp gets into the ninties (F), and the road to the beach (I-95) is going at a blinding clip, this is when the problem turns up. If I approach 70 mph, on a flat road, on a hot day, over a half hour, the temp slowly climbs . . . Until the AC shuts down.

Now, I know the car is old, and, If I drive slower things are OK.

I've replaced the water pump twice, thermostat 4 times, radiator once, Top and Bottom hose twice, (and all them other hoses when I did the Heads) That's the whole system. The problem persists. I drove this car from GA to NF and back last summer, and only had problems coming home, on I-95 in 90+ degree weather. I fixed it by driving slower. But . . . ya know? . . . I sure would like to solve this one.

Karl

[CoachKarl]

Hello everyone,

Got under the hood some this weekend.

Opened Radiator Cap (With van parked overnight on 15 degree incline,) Radiator was completely full. Res was half full, slightly less full than when I last posted. I did notice a small amount of white greasy residue stuck to the inside of the neck of the filler cap. Oil? ! ? Dipstick looks fine. Will keep posting.

Karl

[CoachKarl]

Hello everyone,

I pulled out the thermostat, and flushed out everything!

1. Fluid 50/50 green as should be.
2. Blowing (by mouth) through radiatior top hose sounded restricted (wheezey)
3. I found ,in old used fluid, 2 Tbs white residue clinging to the bottom of my pan.
WHAT IS IT?

a. Appeared to be solid matter,
b. Is, In fact, viscious.
4. I suspected oil, but, is oil ligter than glycol?

Karl.

[CoachKarl]

I priced the local parts shops, and then the web.

$145 (US) Best price locally. But . . delivered to my door via the web $125.

Golly!!!

Brand new radiator cost $125 (US) via the web delivered to my door!!

Now here's a conundrum.

How can a car fixin savy computer programmer (me) guy possibly make the world better. . .

1. Do I give $20 more to autozone?
2. Do I go with the lowest price.

How do y'all vote?

I'm an American (North American, State of Georgia), web savy guy, wanting to make good by you.

Karl

(no hurry, I'm taking this car on this vacation , regardless, but . . I will install a new radiator)

[12Ounce]

I usually will pay a few more bucks to see what I'm getting.

You are probably not facing the following scenario, but I'll mention it just for "small talk".

It is possible that some engine cooling systems are not large enough for the engine as it ages. As there is more piston ring blowby and valve leakage, more of the combustion energy is lost to the block and the coolant.

Years ago radiator shops offered "more effective than OEM" core radiators, as an aftermarket solution, to overcome some of this problem. Don't know if they are still available.

[wiswind]

The residue may have been some thread sealant that you used during assembly during your major repairs.
The motorcraft thread sealant that I bought was white, and if yours was another color, who knows what color it might be after years in the system.

Didn't you say that you had replaced the radiator?.....I cannot imagine another one going bad.
I wonder how easy it is to blow through a new radiator, once it is installed and has had coolant in it....then drained?
I did try blowing through mine after draining for while, with just the drain cock open....and it had a lot of resistance, but I considered that normal for a radiator that has been full of coolant, and the opening out through the drain cock is small.
You have far more experience than I do with the amount of work that you have done on your vehicle.

For a replacement radiator, I would try to get a good quality unit.....which would come down to a brand name unit.
It is hard to tell in the store or over the internet.
I would not know a good one if I saw one, just by looking at it.... Unless it was something obvious.
Shipping damage is a concern with an item like this, and that can happen on the way to the store, as well as on the way to your home.
With the store unit, you can take it back, although, you will want to verify the return policy, especially if it is a "special order item.
With the internet unit, you will want to check into the return policy if it is damaged.

[Mama's T-Bird]

My 96 Windstar, 3.8L, has also been plagued twice by the climbing temperature guage, both times after turning off air conditioning and driving in stop&go traffic. Also had temp guage wavering between 40% and 55% back and forth every 30 seconds to one minute, and was using small amount of coolant. This was discussed in the FTE forum by someone with a Taurus and where I think I've seen Wiswind posting. My 96 has 77,000 miles-I've owned since 23,000 miles and have done all coolant maintenance--nothing but green coolant and distilled water, and am most postitive that nothing was done to it until I bought it. After this guage problem started with coolant loss but no evidence whatsoever where coolant was going (no drops, oil super clean , etc.), I tried an old Wiswind trick and ran 1/2 can of Bar's stop-leak for 500 miles, then flushed radiator with can of radiator/system cleaner and about 15 gallons of distilled water (flush,fill,drive-around,drain--did this 4-5 times). This stopped about 80% of the wavering temp. guage, but it did the climbing temp. thing last weekend. Played with it when I got it home--but could only get fans to come on at high speed. Now, the Haynes manual says: "Fan operation is controlled by PCM and a pair of High and Low speed fan relays and Air conditioning relay. On 1997 and earlier, relays are incorporated in the CCRM. Pcm commands CCRM to turn on fan on low speed when temp. reaches 210, and turn fan off when temp drops to 204. Fan runs on high speed if temp reaches 225, and stops when temp drops to 208. LOW SPEED fan operation is accomplished by use of a DROPPING RESISTOR located in wiring harness leading to the cooling fans." I think these temp problems are related to that resistor since most people with this problem report normal temp operation when running the air conditioning. Looking over the wiring harness, without unhooking it anywhere or ripping all the taping and plastic covering off, I fail to see where this resistor could be. Can anyone enlighten me? Have also not found this resistor at local auto-parts stores, or anywhere on the internet. My other deep-seated worry is: even though coolant use is very small--8 oz. every 300-400 miles, I think coolant is leaking out of headgasket and not in, and thereby causing these temp flucuations. Any comments--sorry for a long post.

[busboy4]

>> Looking over the wiring harness, without unhooking it anywhere or ripping all the taping and plastic covering off, I fail to see where this resistor could be. Can anyone enlighten me? >>

Hi
I think I found it on my '96 with the help of my electrical/vacuum manual: find the wiring harness that snakes up from around the windshield washer fluid reservoir. A two wire take-off (Blk/Org & Blk/Red) comes out a short distance from the reservoir and leads to a connector mounted on the forward wall of the engine compartment (2" long, .5 " diameter). That should be the connector for the resistor. To see the resistor, move forward a bit and look down between the back of the right headlamp and the front side of the engine compartment wall. You will see what I think is the resistor - White ceramic "block" appx. 11/2"X3" and you will see a screw head. It is buried in there, but with a connector attached someone obviously figured you might want to replace it one day.

Seems strange to put it way over there as the wiring diagram shows power flow from the engine compartment fuse box (left side) over to the resistor (right side) back to the CCRM (left side) then to the cooling fans. What a goat rope.

[Mama's T-Bird]

To busboy 4--------Thanks--you were exactly right. Too bad not one dealer in the entire Indianapolis area had stock of this $62.00 part. Had to order off the net, but saved $10.00. My resistor had one wire rusted off and the other was so corroded at point of contact on the resistor, I don't see how it could have been working either.

[wiswind]

I found mine.....broken.
However, I took pictures and loaded them into the pictures that the link in my signature will take you to.