More problems starting. code 16 related.

skotman · #1 05-08-2006, 10:14 AM

i own a rugged 1989 CRX dx with stock everything, minus a few parts i've had to replace. the only engine mod i have is that someone half-assed a cold air intake. i'd have to show you a picture for you to see how half-assed it is, but it works, and i'm not going for performance, so it's fine for now.

so i've gotten code 16 off and on over the past year or so. it's never caused any problem that i know of. usually what would happen was that the car would fail to start for 2 or 3 tries, but lately i've been having more and more problems starting. starting about a year ago, SOMETIMES my car would not start after i just turned it off. pumping gas, for example. i've just had to leave the engine running so i wouldn't have to deal with not being able to start... but after about 4 tries or so i usually start. the car almost always has started just fine from a cold start.

lately, though, my car's dependability has fallen sharply. three times now i've been at work (12 hours car not running) and i've come back to a car that would not start no matter how many times i'd try. i eventually would wear the battery down, call someone for a jump, and, i guess the extra power from the jump was enough for me to try a few more times and finally get it running.

last night the jump didn't help. in fact, the battery wasn't really anywhere near dead in this case. i was, fortunately close enough to home to get my sister to bring my tools. i took out the spark plugs which looked cruddy and cleaned them and put them back in. car still wouldn't start. my sister drove me to get some new spark plugs. i splurged and got some nice bosch plugs. i figured if anything'll help, it'll be these. still didn't help.

upon pulling the brand new plugs back out for inspection, i noticed there was a bit of oil on them. brand new. i know i burn oil, but it's not any more than any other car i've owned in the past. around a quart every month or two.

anyway, what finally did get the car started was a can of ether sprayed into the air intake as my sister turned the key. and that wasn't even really working. i had to lightly spray it and have her turn the key for a good 25 seconds before the car finally started running on fuel of its own.

i had the foresight to reset the computer during all this mess yesterday. i checked it during trying to start, and got a fresh code 16. fuel injectors.

any advice here? i've had sea foam recommended to me, but can't find it anywhere in the south.

skotman · #2 05-08-2006, 08:44 PM

okay, since the fuel pump does not make noise when i turn the key on, and i tested the wires and am positive beyond a shadow of a doubt that it gets power when i turn the key on, i decided the pump was bad. i replaced the fuel pump (had to drop the tank and everything) i tested it by plugging it all in after i had the pump hooked up to its little bracket that goes into the tank. it does not turn on when you turn the key on. in fact, i don't hear anything when i try to crank it even. i decided this must be normal, since it was a brand spanking new pump, and put everything back together, doublechecked the wires going to it, and tried to start it. i figured i'd need to let it prime itself before it would start, but it's the same old story. won't start no matter how long or how many times i try to crank it.

code 16 is fuel injectors, so i'm focusing on them. maybe i'll replace the fuel filter tomorrow as well. i loosened one of the lines running to it today, and sure enough it's got pressure even after all the work with the new pump, so that pump has got to be working. still, i can't get the engine to run. i even used some of that starter fluid i did last night. it'll run for a second or two on that and then kill.

someone suggested to take off the throttle body and tap the injectors with a hammer. i don't see the injectors. i'm assuming they're on the throttle body since that's where the gas line runs, and supposedly it splits in two since it's dpfi, but i really don't see where the fuel enters the system. i always assumed that Fuel injection meant that fuel was injected directly into the cylinder, but it looks like it's injected into the air intake manifold. i never knew.

i could search for a civic with a similar engine to pull a new throttle body from, but that's time consuming hunting for one in this area.

any advice as to where the injectors are so i can take them apart and clean them would be appreciated. my haynes manual is pretty vague sometimes.

FrodoGT · #3 05-08-2006, 09:19 PM

DPFI is hardly fuel injection..its closer to a suped up carb than anything, normal fuel injection is pumped straigh out to the cylinder (not inside them but rather to the valve) While DPFI does put fuel in rather far back in the Manifold.

skotman · #4 05-08-2006, 11:35 PM

i agree. i remember looking at the throttle body today and thinking "... am i SURE i've got fuel injection? this kinda looks like a carburator with a fancy air intake slapped on top."

FrodoGT · #5 05-09-2006, 01:00 AM

And it is...

turtlecrxsi · #6 05-09-2006, 08:34 AM

Have you thought maybe the main relay isn't working?

skotman · #7 05-09-2006, 09:34 AM

the reason i don't think it's the main relay is because when it finally does decide to start running it runs fine. if it were the main relay i'd expect it to either never start or kill on me in the middle of driving home, and it's never so much as sputtered.

in the event that i'm wrong, my repair manual gives me neither the location of the terminal, nor which leads to test and so forth. it says simply that they must be replaced as a unit and should be taken to a dealer.

it was suggested earlier that if i suspected a bad fuel pump, that the main relay could be at fault as well. if i run across a compatable civic in a junkyard and i'll only end up spending like $5 on a relay, you'll bet i'll pull it for just-in-case-ness.

i've pulled my injectors out of the throttle body. i've cleaned them a bit. they didn't show any obvious physical defects other than slight discoloration on plastic parts from age. i cracked part of the electrical plug's plastic casing on the bottom injector. yeah, i was thrilled about that.

the resistance on both injectors is zero. i THOUGHT i remembered reading somewhere that it should be somewhere around 5. i'm not positive.

so the plan is to scour local junkyards for a civic 88 - ... like 95 i guess, for an engine identical to the stock engine in an 89 crx for parts.

FrodoGT · #8 05-09-2006, 02:28 PM

Yeah, there is suppose to have 1.5-2.5 ohms, as stated in the service manual.

amy@af · #9 05-09-2006, 02:41 PM

have you checked the white sensor on top that looks like a turkey probe?

that could be exactly why its a rough start but when it gets started it runs really good. those DPFI dont really have much to go wrong with when it comes to "fuel injectors". the way to tell if the main relay is clicking on is turn your key and watch the check engine light. when that goes out you should hear a click. i don't think that is your problem as it sounds like you checked it with an ohm meter

don't freak out and start pulling 95 parts, they won't do your 88 any good. 95 = obd-1 and 88 = odb-0. its apples and oranges...they are different but both fruit. d series engines are the same but different. you just need to test a couple of things and we'll get you straightend out

skotman · #10 05-09-2006, 03:34 PM

i gave up on finding civics in junkyards. i found one junkyard with 2 civics and a crx today. every car including these in the lot looked as if they had been chewed up and then thrown across the lot. all were stacked on top of another car. only one had the throttle body still on it, but it was exposed to the weather for i don't know how long, and was at a 45 degree angle on top of another car, so i didn't bother.

i found out that these parts are somewhat easy to order. i got part numbers from honda and another place, one is refurbished, one is brand new. i just went with the waranteed refurbished injectors. i ordered new injectors and bought a new fuel filter. injectors won't be in until MAYBE friday. that's the fastest i could get them.

about the engine light and the clicking. yes, the check engine light comes on and clicks as it turns off when i put my key into the ON position. the check engine light comes right back on barely a second after i try to start my car. i've run my battery almost completely dead trying to start it, so i've got it charging at the moment. i'll put the new filter on it later tonight and give it another shot.

about the filter. i pulled the old one (about 2 year old filter) and dumped the old gas out just to see what it looked like. out of one hole, i got clear clean looking gas. out of the other it was a little darker. the more i poured out the darker it got. if i tapped on the filter, i got kinda cruddy looking gas. but the original 15 year old filter i replaced 2 years ago looked a little worse than this, yet it did actually run...

amy@af · #11 05-09-2006, 04:41 PM

I know where you're coming from....the computer is telling you fuel injector. sometimes the computer is let's say "confused"

I own a honda swap shop...learned a few things along the way.

the "turkey probe" I was talking about is an IAT (intake air temp) sensor located on the top of the throttle body. you can check it with your ohm meter....i think its somewhere 1 to 5 ohms, I would have to look it up to be sure. however I do know if its reading 0 or nothing at all that the IAT is no good.

why am I stuck on suggesting the IAT? it sences temp. when it's no good and you try to start car cold the car will have rough or no start at all. after the car is warm it starts no problem.

its a pretty common honda problem. test the bugger and we can further trouble shoot from there.

don't worry, a stock engine can be figured out in a matter of tests/checks. its the custom hybrids that can drive a person crazy with all the different variables

amy@af · #12 05-09-2006, 07:41 PM

after i got to the shop i busted out the ol' honda shop manual and opened up the fuel & emissions chapter. checked the trouble flowchart for difficult to cold start and it lead me to the air intake system chapter.

check the IAT, i'm 99.9% sure that is where the problem is hiding

Honda Racer69 · #13 05-09-2006, 08:06 PM

umm did u get a new starter? lol my friend had a simular problem... he got a new starter and it was good as new

skotman · #14 05-09-2006, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honda Racer69

umm did u get a new starter? lol my friend had a simular problem... he got a new starter and it was good as new

starter works fine.

skotman · #15 05-09-2006, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyNRedSi

why am I stuck on suggesting the IAT? it sences temp. when it's no good and you try to start car cold the car will have rough or no start at all. after the car is warm it starts no problem....

the problem with cold starting is actually new. i've been having my most problems with warm starting. for the past year my car refuses to start for anywhere between 5 mins and several hours after i've driven it somewhere, and it doesn't have any correlation with distance or engine temp. i'll look for the iat, though, but what i'm picturing when you describe it to me doesn't have any electrical connection to anything.

thanks! keep the suggestions coming if you know of anything. i'm kinda a sitting duck at the moment waiting on my new injectors to come in. i figure i'll replace them anyway.

POST REPLY TO THIS THREAD