92 grand am 2.3L SOHC engine mount

[GrandAmNot]

92 Grand AM, excelent cond., super clean, 58,000 miles, 2.3 L Quad SOHC.
Going after the head gasket. Manifolds removed. That extra exhaust manifold support bracket was a stubborn surprise. The bracket to manifold bolt was a mess. Used a Saws-All and just cut the bracket. Removed the part of the engine mount attached to the wheelwell/rail and the 4-bolt 90 degree aluminum piece (the dogbone?) but can't get that plate off the side of the engine. Need to get that off to get at the timing chain cover.
Have used WD-40, Liquid Wrench, and the closed end of a 15mm wrench with a pipe extension. Those three bolts won't budge. Do I need heat? Would a Benz-o-Matic be hot enough? Are those three bolts reverse threaded.
A used or rebuilt engine is not an option$
Have already just slightly rounded one bolt. Any more of that and the project is over. Tempted to drill holes in the wheel well and use a break bar and socket.
Any ideas or suggestions? Thanks. Keith

[gmack221]

Those are stubborn bolts, try heating them up with a torch, then after you shut off the torch spray them with penetrating oil while they are still warm, sometimes this will allow it to penetrate. To make heat work the best you have to heat the engine block where the bolts thread into, problem is the bracket is right there, hope you get lucky and they come right out. To avoid rounding any more off try putting the wrench on the bolt & using blocks of wood between the wrench & the wheelwell, then put your pipe on and you should be easier. Try a few taps with a hammer on the pipe.

Oh and no those bolts are not reverse thread, righty tighty lefty loosey.

[GrandAmNot]

Wow. That was quick. Thanks.
Got a 6 point wrench and a propane torch. Will see how that goes.
Front end is on jacks with the right wheel off and both struts extended.
Might also try removing bottom mount, raising right control arm/axle and seeing how far up I can raise that side of the engine. Maybe enough to get two of the bolts accessible above wheel well.
Thanks agin. Will post back with results.

[GrandAmNot]

Well, finally got that plate off. Found some "Bolt Out' (or Bolt Off) gizmos from Sears/Craftsman. They work like Easy Outs but are sockets with spiral ridges inside that bite into the bolt head when turning left. They work great. May or may not have had to remove the lower mount, break caliper and seperate the axle from the spline to raise that side of the engine another 5-6 inches. But it is done. Thought I'd be on my way to removing the chain and head. No such luck. The main pully for the serpentine belt has to come off to get the chain cover off. Big 27mm (1 1/16) bolt holding the pully. Propane heat and impact wrench won't budge it. Wonder if the heat is just expanding the bolt and making it worse. May need a bigger compressor. Using a big wrench or ratchet/socket just turns the inards.
If at first you don't succeed, try and try again. Then quit. No sense being a damn fool about it. May take myself up on that advice soon.

[gmack221]

I think I actually used an english socket to remove that bolt, but if you have a metric one thats even better. Make sure you have the belt on (this will provide a little more drag), they make impacts with different torques (or what ever they call it), maybe you have a cheaper one like I did. Best way I found to get that bolt out is using a ratchet & socket then beating on the ratchet handle with a hammer until it loosens. good luck, your almost thru the hard part! last tedious thing will be removing all of the timing chain cover bolts.

[GrandAmNot]

Thanks again. I did take the belt off before lighting up the torche. I'll put the belt back on or - make something like those belt-type oil filter wrenches and use it to grab the pully. Have something quite similar for removing the gear clusters on 10/12/15/18-speed bicycles. All those chain cover bolts are already off. Was tempted to just bend that plate out of the way but figured it was time to walk away from the whole thing for a while and get my wits back in order. Will fix the neighbors clothes washer first - might be a good morale booster.

[skibum1111]

Don't bend the cover, it will never seal right again if you do. As for the crank pulley bolt, get a socket and breaker bar on it, pinch it down with something, screwdriver against the block etc. then turn the bolt. You will need a puller to get the pulley off, make sure you don't use a jaw type puller, this will result in the pulley being bent. When you go to thread the bolts into the pulley, run a tap through them first, they tend to clog up with rust. Good luck.

[GrandAmNot]

Finally!!! No heat. No impact wrench. Stuck a socket extension through the pully to keep it from moving, put a two foot pipe on the 1/2" ratchet with the 6 point socket, put my foot on the lower control arm, took a couple of deep breaths and pulled like hell. Got it. And no bloody knuckles! And my favorite local mechanics even loaned me their pully puller.
Bending the chain cover was just an idea born of frustration and anger. A cold beer sounded like, and was, a much better idea.
Next stop - the timing chain. Looks interesting. Might as well get a new one of those, too, when I get all the new gaskets. Would hate to have to do this all over again.
The neighbors think I'm nuts and I'm beginning to think they might be right.
Should I add '/head gasket' to the thread title? Can a thread title be edited?

[skibum1111]

After you remove the timing chain, remove the sprockets and the timing chain housing. There are 2 head bolts hidden behind the cover. Definately replace the chain, tensioner, guides and sprockets, it would really bite to have to go through all this again.

[GrandAmNot]

Hidden bolts?? Surprise, surprise!!
What's a few more hack engineering marvels?
All auto engineers should have to do a repair job before cashing a paycheck.
If they can't do it, the check goes into a general fund for folks like us to spend on parts, tools, or mechanics.

[GrandAmNot]

All three sprockets?
I'm running out of room in the trunk for the parts.
Should just pull the whole engine/trans out and put it on the floor.

edit added > Hadn't even pulled the bolt on the top sprocket yet. Definitely didn't expect the top and bottom bracket to just slide off. What about that middle sprocket that runs what looks like some kind of pump behind the chain housing? Does the 'pump' stay attached to the chain housing? < edit added

Tomorrow is Sunday - its been many many years since I've been to church but maybe I should go and confess to all the foul language and evil thoughts I've been having lately.

PS: Thanks to all for all the replies and suggestions/hints/clues.

[skibum1111]

Yup all 3 sprockets. After that, the only large part that will be left is the head. Make sure you put it some place that is safe, clean and it won't get knocked over. Also, while the head is off have a machine shop pressure test it to make sure it isn't cracked, and have them check it to make sure its level. It really sucks to put a motor back together to find the head is either warped or cracked.

[gmack221]

Originally Posted by GrandAmNot

Hidden bolts?? Surprise, surprise!!
What's a few more hack engineering marvels?
All auto engineers should have to do a repair job before cashing a paycheck.
If they can't do it, the check goes into a general fund for folks like us to spend on parts, tools, or mechanics.

By the way, engineers don't design the parts, designers make the parts so they can be made & be functional. Most of the time they don't get to see the whole picture of where everything is and how hard it will be to remove, but sometimes they do. Sometimes service is difficult, but when your told you have a space the size of a closed fist to put a power steering pump and you don't design the part that you have to take off to get to the power steering pump, how are you supposed to make it easier to get pump off.

In case you haven't figured it out, I am an automotive designer, Its always challenging and one person doesn't design it all. Yes I do work on cars, as well as most of the people in my field, yes we get just as mad when we come acrossed something someone didn't design easy to get off, but its part of life man, deal with it or pay someone that wrenches everyday to do it. The consumers all want small cars with big motors that get good gas mileage, if those 3 statements don't contridict each other I don't know what does. Oh yeah and we need that all yesterday, thats everyday life where I work. So just understand, "we do what we can to make everyone happy", but its very seldom that everyone is happy. We can design cars that would have big motors, & ride well, but they don't corner, they don't get good gas mileage, we quit making them in the 60's, & 1/2 the people out there today couldn't park them in a 50 acre field.

So you want a small car, that handles, has a big motor & get good gas mileage, then don't complain when it takes an extra 2 hrs labor to change a part, in a car that saves you hundreds of $ in gas money a year. Oh yeah and when we design a part that last a long time the OEM (car maker) says, since that lasted so long you can take another 1/5th of the weight of part out, so we can make things lighter to get better gas mileage.

The fact of the matter is you can't have it all, you want it like Buger King, great we'll give it to you "your way", but don't do cutting down an industry you don't understand, saying the money I make should go into an account you can spend, fact of the matter is its taken you almost a month to do what I did on my car in a night after work. I wrench and I know how long it should take to do things, a mechanic could have done your job in 4 - 5 hrs, for me it would take about 7-8, how long have you spent on it? Now im sorry if this sounds harsh, but you hit a real sore spot here. I spend my free time helping people save money (by not paying a mechanic) on these forums, and to get a crack like that out of someone I'm helping step thru a project hurt. I'm sure im not the only car designer that surfs these forums, and im sure they are helping people out where they can, so use a little more respect for the industry Please!

[Slade901]

I'm on the same situation as you are, I tried using a close-end wrench and it's like I can see the wrench getting bent and still not budging. I'll try that heat stuff and easy out from Sears.

[GrandAmNot]

Ouch. Looks like I've got another good reason to head to the confessor.
Sorry, gmack, for that knee jerk reaction/comment from when I was in the throes of that fit of frustration and thanks, gmack, I deserved the smack. Though my wish list for a car is pretty short: a small to medium car, a reliable small to medium sized engine and a horn and windows that work. Too many Hummers and assorted gas guzzling hulks at the grocery store and it is fun and disturbing at the same time to be a spectator at the 50 acre field.
Even if I had all the requisite tools and more experience it does seem a bit extreme to have jump thru so many hoops to replace a gasket. Though I suppose that goes with the overhead cam territory. Looks like the oilpan has to go, too, to free the lower end of the timing chain housing. But the cradle part of the engine side of the lower mount is hiding some of the oil pan bolts and the jack is under the oilpan. No cherry picker and no chain-fall in the rafters.
I've done lots of small jobs on the outside of engines but nothing on this scale and went into this with shaky expectations of success and and hopes of at least learning a thing or two. To wit: I've bit off more than I can chew AND that there are lots of generous, knowledgable, helpful folks in the help forums found on the internet that have saved me a lot of time and grief on a number of ocassions - this forum and this thread included.
I think my next move is to re-mount the engine as is, re-assemble the axle/spindle/break/wheel and either try to sell the Grand Am as is or donate it to the local high school auto shop.
Thanks again for the help and the smack.