The fact of the "Illegal" issue that many people refuse to acknowledge...

[AlmostStock]

Yes, I know. Illegal immigrants are bad, bad and more bad. Except for...

Illegal workers: good for U.S. economy

http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/01/news...nomy/index.htm

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) - In the heated debate over the impact of illegal immigration on the U.S. economy, Andrew Sum is one of those focusing on the negative.

The economist - the director of labor market studies at Northeastern University in Boston - argues that the large supply of immigrants has displaced low-skilled U.S.-born workers, particularly the young and the poor, from jobs.

"About 85.5 of every 100 new workers are new immigrants in this decade," he said. "At no time in the last 60 years have we come close to this. They're really displacing young workers at a very high rate."

But even Sum would concede that the U.S. economy is larger, and growing faster, due to the supply of illegal immigrants, and that most Americans with higher job skills are better off for their presence.

"Without the immigrants, we would have a decline in labor force of 3 to 4 percent," he said. "We couldn't have grown nearly as much as we did in the '90s if we didn't have immigrants. And in the last few years our growth would have been slower. The only thing I've argued is that we've ignored that illegal immigration has put a lot of young adults into economic jeopardy."

Sum's views point out the dichotomy that many economists see when looking at the impact of immigration on the economy.

Few economists will argue with the concept that the economy is stronger for the presence of the low-cost labor force.

Powell and many economists say that the economy would face significant problems if there was any significant cut in the amount of immigrant labor coming into the country.

"Immigration is actually critical," said Bernard Baumohl, executive director of the Economic Outlook Group, a research group in Princeton Junction, N.J. "It allows the U.S. economy to grow more rapidly without higher inflation pressures."

Some economists argue that not only do U.S. consumers benefit from lower prices as a result of the low wages most immigrants are paid, but that the availability of lower-wage labor helps create more work for higher-skilled, higher-paid workers who are generally native born.

"If I'm a builder and I can hire more wallboard guys cheaply, my (ability to use) skilled carpenters goes up," said Northeastern's Sum.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/01/news/economy/immigration_economy/index.htm

[TexasF355F1]

Immigrants yes, but illegal leeches no.

Look at today for example, they did very little to disrupt our daily lives. Except crowd the streets.

And what good were the kids who were out of school? Well some kids actually probably were able to concentrate without these kids who undoubtedly cause a ruckus in class.

[MonsterBengt]

Originally Posted by AlmostStock

But even Sum would concede that the U.S. economy is larger, and growing faster, due to the supply of illegal immigrants, and that most Americans with higher job skills are better off for their presence.

And what message does that send do Americans who are studying to gain higher work skills? That you dont need to put you back into it to get there. And where do you think that'll get America in 10 years?

[YogsVR4]

I'll have to find that article I saw on the cost/benefit on illegals. Its not pretty. They cost a whole lot more then they contribute.

Illegals must be kicked the fuck out. Come back legally like millions of others have.

[stone_mound_camaro]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

I'll have to find that article I saw on the cost/benefit on illegals. Its not pretty. They cost a whole lot more then they contribute.

yes....

Illegals must be kicked the fuck out. Come back legally like millions of others have.

and.. yes... It seems everyone fails to realize... THEY BROKE THE FUKIN LAW!! THEY ARE HERE ILLEGALLY

[AlmostStock]

http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/apr2006/pi20060407_072803.htm





What are the costs of undocumented immigration in the U.S.?
There are real costs for some states and municipalities, especially for health care and education. But Standard & Poor's believes that a serious misallocation of these costs among various levels of government is at least as much of a problem as their overall magnitude.

Each year, for example, the U.S. Social Security Administration maintains roughly $6 billion to $7 billion of Social Security contributions in an "earnings suspense file" -- an account for W-2 tax forms that cannot be matched to the correct Social Security number. The vast majority of these numbers are attributable to undocumented workers who will never claim their benefits.

If those funds could be earmarked for local support, they would make a sizable dent in education costs. Local school districts are estimated to educate 1.8 million undocumented children. At an average annual cost of $7,500 (averages vary by jurisdiction) per student, the cost of providing education to these children is about $11.2 billion. That means roughly half of the education costs for undocumented immigrant children could be met if these Social Security funds could be redirected.

While this specific reallocation of funds may never occur, the principle, in our opinion, remains valid: Taxes from the spending of undocumented workers can help offset the costs those workers generate. Past studies have shown that even in a state like California, which has the highest number of undocumented immigrants, those immigrants generate approximately one-third to one-half of their estimated costs to the state through sales taxes and other assorted fees. In short, these costs are real, but they could also be more manageable. -S&P article


Adding in the savings in wages which leads to lower prices for everyone, along with a stronger economy, (both of which would be hard to accurately calculate) probably makes illegals close to a wash, or even beneficial to us financially. Did you notice how in his speech on Monday, even our president mentioned the economy as partial rationale for his strategy of dealing with the issue? Hmmmm... there must be some truth behind the benefits being a lot higher than many people want to believe.


Flame away with facts, not emotions.

[stone_mound_camaro]

Originally Posted by AlmostStock

http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/apr2006/pi20060407_072803.htm





What are the costs of undocumented immigration in the U.S.?
There are real costs for some states and municipalities, especially for health care and education. But Standard & Poor's believes that a serious misallocation of these costs among various levels of government is at least as much of a problem as their overall magnitude.

Each year, for example, the U.S. Social Security Administration maintains roughly $6 billion to $7 billion of Social Security contributions in an "earnings suspense file" -- an account for W-2 tax forms that cannot be matched to the correct Social Security number. The vast majority of these numbers are attributable to undocumented workers who will never claim their benefits.

If those funds could be earmarked for local support, they would make a sizable dent in education costs. Local school districts are estimated to educate 1.8 million undocumented children. At an average annual cost of $7,500 (averages vary by jurisdiction) per student, the cost of providing education to these children is about $11.2 billion. That means roughly half of the education costs for undocumented immigrant children could be met if these Social Security funds could be redirected.

While this specific reallocation of funds may never occur, the principle, in our opinion, remains valid: Taxes from the spending of undocumented workers can help offset the costs those workers generate. Past studies have shown that even in a state like California, which has the highest number of undocumented immigrants, those immigrants generate approximately one-third to one-half of their estimated costs to the state through sales taxes and other assorted fees. In short, these costs are real, but they could also be more manageable. -S&P article


Adding in the savings in wages which leads to lower prices for everyone, along with a stronger economy, (both of which would be hard to accurately calculate) probably makes illegals close to a wash, or even beneficial to us financially. Did you notice how in his speech on Monday, even our president mentioned the economy as partial rationale for his strategy of dealing with the issue? Hmmmm... there must be some truth behind the benefits being a lot higher than many people want to believe.


Flame away with facts, not emotions.

I'm not jus talking about the economic impact when I talk about they cost more than they contribute....

[Nayr747]

Originally Posted by stone_mound_camaro

and.. yes... It seems everyone fails to realize... THEY BROKE THE FUKIN LAW!! THEY ARE HERE ILLEGALLY

This is such a tool thing to say. Not all laws are good ones. Growing hemp in this country is STILL illegal! For what reason?..... There is none. Black people broke the law to end segregation. Rosa Parks broke the law by refusing to sit "in her place" on that bus. It is still illegal in some states to get a BJ or to masturbate... So, laws are not inherently good. Many of them are imposed by people no smarter than monkeys, and many are imposed for personal gain or paternalistic reasons (cough, drug laws).

To come to a rational conclusion on the immigrant issue and any other one, people need to quit this sensationalized, buzz word, emotional crap and work out the problem logically with all the facts and information, cost/benifit analysis, etc. It's sad but the truth is people don't go about solving problems like this. I don't know why we pay our govmnt so much money to just sit around and act like they are doing something. It's just a money making machine like any other in a capitalist economy. Sigh.

[stone_mound_camaro]

Originally Posted by Nayr747

This is such a tool thing to say. Not all laws are good ones. Growing hemp in this country is STILL illegal! For what reason?..... There is none. Black people broke the law to end segregation. Rosa Parks broke the law by refusing to sit "in her place" on that bus. It is still illegal in some states to get a BJ or to masturbate... So, laws are not inherently good. Many of them are imposed by people no smarter than monkeys, and many are imposed for personal gain or paternalistic reasons (cough, drug laws).

To come to a rational conclusion on the immigrant issue and any other one, people need to quit this sensationalized, buzz word, emotional crap and work out the problem logically with all the facts and information, cost/benifit analysis, etc. It's sad but the truth is people don't go about solving problems like this. I don't know why we pay our govmnt so much money to just sit around and act like they are doing something. It's just a money making machine like any other in a capitalist economy. Sigh.

Jus GTFO.. How dare you compare the Civil Rights struggles of the 60s to the immigration issue at hand. What the fuck does rosa parks(or any other civil rights pioneer, WHO WERE CITIZENS ANYWAY) have to do with illegal NON-CITIZENS streaming across the border. When mexicans march, they smile have fun and proudly wave their Mexican flags. When the blacks marched they were met with dogs and hoses. Those brave African Americans broke segregation laws because they WERE...uh.. CITIZENS and deserved the right to be treated like....uh... CITIZENS. Dont you EVER compare something as profound as the fight for Civil Rights to the illegal immigrants issue again. You make me sick.



But youre right man, how dare I support our country's law to stop thousands of undocumented illegals from streaming into the country. And use welfare and make my car insurance rates higher. Shame on me for wanting our country to be a working, well oiled capitalist machine that doesnt have to support those who arent it's citizens and dont pay taxes

[Mr Wiggl3s]

No, not good for the workforce, and ill tell you why

Minimum wage in the US is 5.15 right now right? (i really dont know)

Well if you have a illegal immigrant working for mabey 8 hours a day for $30, whats going to happen? The business is going to pay the dude $30 to work there, and will prolly end up firing someone eles who works there to save money.
Then whats going to happen? If the immigrant goes to turn the business in, he gets deported, and jobless, the company pays a fine, and life goes on. Thats just what i saw in the south

[Nayr747]

Originally Posted by stone_mound_camaro

Jus GTFO.. How dare you compare the Civil Rights struggles of the 60s to the immigration issue at hand. What the fuck does rosa parks(or any other civil rights pioneer, WHO WERE CITIZENS ANYWAY) have to do with illegal NON-CITIZENS streaming across the border. When mexicans march, they smile have fun and proudly wave their Mexican flags. When the blacks marched they were met with dogs and hoses. Those brave African Americans broke segregation laws because they WERE...uh.. CITIZENS and deserved the right to be treated like....uh... CITIZENS. Dont you EVER compare something as profound as the fight for Civil Rights to the illegal immigrants issue again. You make me sick.



But youre right man, how dare I support our country's law to stop thousands of undocumented illegals from streaming into the country. And use welfare and make my car insurance rates higher. Shame on me for wanting our country to be a working, well oiled capitalist machine that doesnt have to support those who arent it's citizens and dont pay taxes

WTF is wrong with you? You obvously don't understand what an analogy is. You didn't get that my statement was to PROVE that laws are not always good, and sometimes need to be changed, and that people who break the law are not ALWAYS bad. I said this because the person I quoted gave the justification of "they broke the law" to support his belief on the immigrant issue, implying that all people that break the law are doing something wrong. And I proved this to be incorrect. You would have to prove that the particular law that they broke is actually one of the ones that are morally/rataionally justified, since I proved that some aren't. You can't just say "they broke the law" because this can mean they did something that is technically wrong but is not actually wrong, and so they deserve punishment. It was NOT meant to prove that THIS particular law is wrong, because it may or may not be. It was just to show that it is incorrect to say that someone is ALWAYS doing something wrong because they are breaking the law. YOU even agreed with this: "Those brave African Americans broke segregation laws." Lol.

And I will continue to compare the two all I want. Your stupidity will not determine my actions. You seem VERY emotional about this topic so arguing with you about it is going to go nowhere. It would be like arguing with a lifetime military vet about war. Pointless.

Edit: I just realized that YOU made the statement I quoted. That makes it even funnier.

So are you this mad at the companies who allow these people to work here? If companies followed the law there would be no illegal immigrant problem. Instead of building fences, having "minute men," or some other poinless and innefective system, why not just focus on making companies follow the law???

[Moppie]

This causing a lot of debate, and is making the news here quite a bit, but let me get this straight:

Ameraic was founded by illegal imigrants, people who left thier home land because they were being persecuted, didn't agree with the political situation, wanted a change, wanted to get rich etc, moved to America and pretty much stole all the land and resources from the locals, usualy with out asking and killed untold numbers while they did it.
These imigrants then had a couple of civil wars and decleared them selves a free country, they created a political system based around a central ideal of personal freedom and independance.
Then for next hundred years of so they make a really big fuss about how wonderful this freedom is, and how great the USA is, how much better thier ideals and thier lifestyles are than the rest of the world.
And then they go and get upset when people who are being persecuted, don't agree with their political situation, wanted a change, want to get rich etc want to move in and live there?

[Mr Wiggl3s]

My comment above doens't piss anyone off right?

Yes, america was made on cheap/free labor
But that was then this is now, 2 wrongs doesn't make a right. We need to worry about our own people first, then well get some immigrants after that

[carrrnuttt]

Originally Posted by Moppie

This causing a lot of debate, and is making the news here quite a bit, but let me get this straight:

Ameraic was founded by illegal imigrants, people who left thier home land because they were being persecuted, didn't agree with the political situation, wanted a change, wanted to get rich etc, moved to America and pretty much stole all the land and resources from the locals, usualy with out asking and killed untold numbers while they did it.
These imigrants then had a couple of civil wars and decleared them selves a free country, they created a political system based around a central ideal of personal freedom and independance.
Then for next hundred years of so they make a really big fuss about how wonderful this freedom is, and how great the USA is, how much better thier ideals and thier lifestyles are than the rest of the world.
And then they go and get upset when people who are being persecuted, don't agree with their political situation, wanted a change, want to get rich etc want to move in and live there?

What are you on about?

Mexicans aren't 'persecuted'. They just have a third-world society where the rich get richer off the backs of the poor who get poorer--and their government largely ignores, hell even encourages this, as only the ruling classes generally get to be in any position of power.

What I am personally incensed about, among other things, is the fact that these idiots have the fucking balls to protest about our laws. No matter how this country got to be where it is (with your rant about the past that has NOTHING to do with the current situation), we DO have laws.

Why don't they fucking protest in THEIR country? AMERICA didn't make them poor. We aren't keeping them from their hopes and dreams. We are just asking they do it legally. Even Yogs, who is on my side on this, is asking for a better immigration system to make it easier for LEGAL immigration.

And I doubt you will see things the way some of us do, from thousands of miles away. It's NOT about being rich. I HARDLY see any illegal work THAT hard for betterment. No, they are quite content to eat and live off the welfare state America has become.

To be honest, from where I stand, I don't see them striving to get more education than what is necessary, or is free from the state. From where I stand, they barely even teach their children English, much less themselves. How fucking ambitious can they be, if they don't even strive for this, considering it's a REQUIREMENT for citizenship?

I see them live for generations in the same neighborhoods, with largely degrading conditions. And what does bad conditions tend to foster? Yep. Criminals.

I can speak, as I worked for my state's Department of Corrections, and I can tell you more than half of my state's inmate population is Mexicans. There's so many of them, that they war against each other. "EME" is the name of the Mexican gang that consists of Mexican-Americans. "Border Brothers" are the illegals. They pretty much match each other on power. What does that tell you about how many illegals turn to crime?

If they are really THAT ambitious, then I am sure they can find a way to immigrate legally, or better yet, foster a change in their country's ways, no?

[fredjacksonsan]

Originally Posted by Moppie

This causing a lot of debate, and is making the news here quite a bit, but let me get this straight:

America was founded by illegal immigrants, people who left thier home land because they were being persecuted, didn't agree with the political situation, wanted a change, wanted to get rich etc, moved to America and pretty much stole all the land and resources from the locals, usually with out asking and killed untold numbers while they did it.
These immigrants then had a couple of civil wars and declared themselves a free country, they created a political system based around a central ideal of personal freedom and independence.
Then for next hundred years or so they make a really big fuss about how wonderful this freedom is, and how great the USA is, how much better their ideals and thier lifestyles are than the rest of the world.
And then they go and get upset when people who are being persecuted, don't agree with their political situation, wanted a change, want to get rich etc want to move in and live there?

Quite insightful, once you think about it. Well said.

But this is a very conflicted issue for many reasons.

Don't forget to include the facts that 1) At many points the Europeans were welcomed by and made deals with the Native Americans, and that 2) The Europeans often went back on their word and killed/took what they wanted. You have to look at both sides of the issue. If history repeats itself, then making an agreement to allow a flood of illegals may turn sour in the long run.

However I still don't like what is occurring, and I'm sure the Native Americans didn't like (and actually they still don't like) what happened either. Nor would the citizens of NZ appreciate every island within 2000 miles emptying out and the citizens there boating their way to NZ to work on the cheap. Nor did the Aborigines appreciate what happened in Australia (Aboriginals were classified as "Flora and Fauna" until 1967).

Damn. Now I have to decide whether to relocate to Sweden or Poland. But I could argue that my grandparents arrived in the US just before WWI so the country was already established. Hmmmm.