'92 Euro ignition problem?

[luminati]

I posted the following question and got a prompt response from richtazz:
I have a '92 euro with 234k. she starts right up, idles fine for about 2 min, then starts missing badly, finally dying altogether. then she starts right back up and everything is fine after that. its a mystery. no codes. fuel filter is new. can you narrow my search? Thank you!
Rich said try the idle air control valve. I haven't done anything yet. Now its progressed to sometimes not wanting to start at all. Just cranks but won't fire. When it does, it misses badly and sounds like someone is flicking a kill switch off and on. Ususally once it dies you restart and everything is fine. Has this ever happened to any one? I don't know if the problem is fuel or spark. Thing is, it does not always do this. Sometimes it just starts and runs normally. I don't want to go broke buying parts so I was wondering where to start. Again, thank you for your help!

[richtazz]

Me again. You can also try a tap test on the ECM. If you tap on it and the car stalls, then the ECM is bad.

[luminati]

Thank you Rich! I'll try it. Where is the ECM located?

[richtazz]

It's under the hood, passenger side, under the black plastic cover. Once you get the cover off, you'll see it just ahead of the wheel well. You may have to remove the radiator overflow bottle to get the cover out of the way.

[luminati]

Well I'm back. Rich: Thank you for your suggestions but the problem continues. I removed and cleaned the IAC valve and EGR valve but it made no difference. I also subjected the ECM to the "tap test" which it passed. Someone suggested coolant temp sensor so I'll try that next. Does anyone have any other ideas? Remember, it starts fine, stalls AS it is warming up and then seems to be fine once it gets close to normal operating temperature.

[richtazz]

The coolant temp sensor and intake air temp sensors are the only ones that would have an effect on how the car runs in the transition from cold start to warmed up. so I think you're on the right track. Normally these sensors being out of range will trip a CEL, but not always.

[luminati]

<sigh> for Rich and whoever else is following this drama, its not the coolant temp sensor. I put in a new one last night, started her up and just like clockwork, the same old problem after about 2 minutes of idling. Two re-starts later, it idles just fine. I don't know if this is related but i notice if i goose the throttle while its idling there is a "flat spot" in the 1st 1/2 inch of pedal.

[richtazz]

I would do an ohm test on the injectors next. The ECM isn't completely ruled out yet, especially since you're getting no codes. If the OEM service number on your ECM (if it's original) is 1227727, there's a good chance it's bad. Be careful buying a reman ECM, Standard Ignition does a pretty good job, but A-1 Cardone units are troublesome. There's nothing worse than changing a part, eliminating it from the the list of possibilities, only to find the new part is a turd and is still causing the problem.

[luminati]

Well here's my update. I drove 80 miles to go see my good friend who is also much smarter than I and has all the coolest tools. We hooked up the tester and got code 42 so he agrees with Rich that its the ECM. I ordered one yesterday. Of course, this morning the car started and ran fine! No stalling at all. I guess I'll wait for the problem to return then switch the ECM. Thank you Rich for your input!

[richtazz]

No problem Luminati, keep us posted as to the outcome.

[luminati]

Well here's my update and new question. As I said in my last post, the problem seemed to have cured itself for the most part. Then, after several weeks of relatively trouble-free operation, the following happened: I went out and got in, started in up, it ran for about 2 seconds and just died very suddenly. Now it cranks well but there is no spark. I went ahead and replaced the ECM but there is still no spark. I do not even know if this problem is related to the problem I was having before. Obviously I would like to avoid just replacing parts willy-nilly until I find what is wrong. Any suggestions on where to start? Thank you very much.

[tblake]

pull the ignition module out, its the thing that the 3 coil packs are bolted to. You can bring the whole assembly to a place like autozone for testing. If the ignition module passes have them test it again to get her nice and hot, and if it still passes its probably good, and since you replaced the ecm, the only other thing that could cause a total no spark condition is a faulty crank position sensor. your car may have 2 of these. not sure where they are located, but you may be ably to do an ac voltage check while cranking the motor, or maybe an ohm check on them, but i dont know the specs. good luck, thats all i can think of.

[richtazz]

I agree with Tblake, he's right on the nose. Your particular model only has one crank sensor, and it's mounted in the back of the block just above teh oil pan rail. It's mounted to the block with one 8mm headed bolt, and has a two wire connector (yellow and purple I believe). They can be a bitch to remove, as they have an o-ring that hardens and gets stuck in the block, plus it's mounted in a spot where you can't get any leverage to pull.

[luminati]

Thanks for your advice tblake and richtazz, I'll give it a try.

[Lt.carguy]

T,Rich,Lu
The exchange between ya-all has been a ginormous help to me
as I am working on a 92 3.1, WITH NO SPARK, the guys at Autozone
tested the ICM, like 12 times to heat it up, and it passed.
I found that taking the time to remove the airbox as well as the fans
made the removal of the ICM a ton easier, but I have hands the size of
most peoples feet (lol) and the crank sesor is going to be a challenge because of it, BUT, I will perservere.
THANKS FOR THE BANTER.
Lt.