What is Mexico getting out of this whole illegal debate?

[Muscletang]

I heard about a law today about how an American citizen will get arrested if they get a job in Mexico. There are exceptions but if I were to move to Mexico now, buy a house, and get a job, they'd throw me in jail because I'm an American trying to get a job down there. Is there any truth to this?

Anyway, as I was looking I found an interesting article.

Undue Influence -- the Government of Mexico and U.S. Immigration Policies

It's too long but I'll give you some nice juicy highlights below. It just points out that Mexico has a very high interest in us. They want open borders, meddle in our policies that deal with Mexicans and illegals, and things like that.

Why? Why is Mexico so interested in us? They get over 16 billion a year from illegals and probably legals as well. Do they want more money or are they wanted some control over us to get even more money and more resources from the tax payers of this country? Or in the long run do they want to call us the Mexican States of America?

Originally Posted by Mexican President Fox

In the last few months we have managed to achieve an improvement in the situation of many Mexicans in that country, regardless of their migratory status, through schemes that have permitted them access to health and education systems, identity documents, as well as the full respect for their laboral and human rights.

Some influential Mexicans go even further, speaking openly in terms of a reconquista (re-conquest). Author and commentator Elena Poniatowska, speaking in Venezuela, applauded a reconquista of the Southwest United States (briefly part of Mexico in the 19th Century) by means of immigration policy. Mexico’s leading man of letters, Carlos Fuentes, referred positively to a “silent reconquista” of the United States through means of the Spanish language (The Siglo, October 20, 2001).

A Zogby International poll of May 2002 revealed the wide disparity between Mexican and American attitudes toward their common border. A majority of Mexicans polled (58%) agreed with the statement that “The territory of the United States’ Southwest rightfully belongs to Mexico,” while only 28% disagreed and 14% were unsure.

A majority of Mexicans polled (57%) agreed with the statement, “Mexicans should have the right to enter the U.S. without U.S. permission” with 35% disagreeing and 7% being unsure.

A growing number of Mexican consuls-general have already gained a reputation for overt meddling in U.S. politics. One example is Teodoro Maus, consul-general in Atlanta from 1989 to 2001 (with a brief hiatus). Maus was consul-general of Atlanta, responsible for Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee and South Carolina, but functioned more as a colonial governor than a diplomatic representative.

Maus publicly opposed the declaration of English as Georgia’s official language, demanded and received an apology from a local radio talk show host who had suggested machine guns and guard towers be placed at the border. Maus joined with local Hispanic activists in attacking Norman Bingham, Cobb County Board of Education Chairman, who had stated that Latino construction workers were “uneducated” and “probably illegal aliens.” In the end Bingham did not leave his position but was forced to apologize and issue a two-page apology. Maus attacked a Smyrna, Georgia, law requiring all commercial signs be in English, agitated for the issuance of drivers’ licenses to illegal aliens, and told local Hispanics to punish Georgia companies which, in Maus’ view, “mistreat or ignore Hispanic customers.” Whatever one might think of the details of such incidents, the fact remains that Maus overstepped the proper function of a foreign diplomat and was clearly intervening in American internal politics.

To date, though, none of these incidents or similar ones have been reprimanded by the U.S. government.

The new office of Commission for Northern Border Affairs was created by Fox, and Ernesto Ruffo was named to head up that department. Secretary Ruffo’s attitude toward the border was expressed in his advice to would-be illegal crossers “If the border patrol finds you, try again.”

A consulate is designed to represent a foreign government before both the citizens of the host country and those of its own. Americans applying for permits in Mexico are sometimes required to process paperwork in a Mexican consulate in the U.S.

The activities of Mexican consulates in the U.S., however, have greatly expanded in recent years. No longer do they simply represent Mexico. The forty-eight Mexican consulates in U.S. territory frequently function as centers of political acitiviy which serve to impede assimilation of Mexican immigrants and thwart the application of U.S. immigration law.

Proposition 187 — The Mexican consulate in Los Angeles, California helped organize a demonstration in 1994 to protest Proposition 187, a state referendum seeking to deny benefits to illegal aliens.

Flag Day — On February 26, 2002, the Mexican consul general of San Jose, California, visited a school in Salina, California, for an observance of “Mexican Flag Day.” The Consul General, Marco Antonio Alcázar, spoke to a group of fifth and sixth-graders, the majority of whom were of Mexican ancestry. Alcázar told the students that “This is exciting because there are many childen in this city who were born in the United States, whose parents are Mexicans, and these children have the opportunity now to enjoy two different nationalities and be proudly American and proudly Mexican.” Following the speech and flag presentation, Alcácar donated two more flags and Mexican textbooks to the school.

In San Francisco we have the “Golden Rules for Undocumented Immigrants.” Appearing on the San Francisco-based website (December 28), written by an employee of the Mexican embassy in San Francisco, the “Golden Rules” is subtitled “ten basic and fundamental steps suggested by the Mexican Consulate.” It advises illegal aliens to contact the nearest Mexican consulate and “listen to Spanish-language radio” for information. It also includes tips on how to stay out of trouble and not attract attention, including “Do not hit or abuse your spouse.” The article informs illegal aliens that legal residency can be obtained by marrying a citizen or legal resident, but adds “Do not attempt simultaneous marriages.” Keeping illegal aliens abreast of recent state developments, the article informed them that “Cali-fornia undocumented youth … can be admitted to state universities and colleges paying resident tuition.”

Currently, one of the major emphases of Mexican consulates in the U.S. is the issuance of, promotion of, and defense of, the "matricula consular" or “consular card.” Thousands of Mexican residents in the U.S. are lining up daily to receive a consular card from a Mexican consulate as proof of their identity. As of October 3, 2002, according to Mexican journalist Bernardo Mendez, the cards “are recognized as identification by almost one thousand police departments, and hundreds of counties and cities. (The Siglo, October 3, 2002).

Although the Mexican consul at Santa Ana, California, defended the matricular consular by asserting that “it has nothing to do with immigration and the INS,” the facts speak otherwise.

To begin with, the matricula consular is not a Mexican passport. A Mexican passport is issued in Mexico to Mexicans planning to travel outside of Mexico. Mexicans who travel legally to the United States are granted passports before they apply for their U.S. visa. Legal Mexican immigrants or visitors thus have no need of a consular card, which is applied for when the applicant is already in the United States.

The fact that Vicente Fox has made the issuance of consular cards a high priority indicates the real reason they are issued — to avoid the deportation of illegal aliens.

"The frequent deportation of Mexicans for lack of an ID card can become a thing of the past, with the approval of an initiative that proposes the acceptance of the matricula consular (issued by the Mexican government through its consulates in the entire country), as an official identification document for police authorities when they detain or intercept Mexicans." (Monica Solis, The Siglo, November 5, 2001).

La Reforma calls the matricula consular a “benefit for illegal aliens.”

I'll let you read the other stuff but it seems Mexico likes getting into our business. Why?

I found this too. They can mess with our stuff but we can't...

Gringo Meddlers Expelled From Mexico!

On May 2nd, the Instituto Nacional de Migración (Mexican INS) expelled 18 Americans from Mexico. These expelled Americans had violated the terms of their Mexican visas by getting involved, albeit in a minor fashion, in Mexican politics – a definite no-no for foreigners in Mexico.

The Americans’ offense was to participate in May Day marches in Mexico City and Guadalajara. The ones in Mexico City were college students, visiting with their professor from Washington State. They had joined a group protesting the expropriation of land near Mexico City for a new airport and were waving machetes with the other protestors. They might have gotten away with it, except that some of them were heard on the TV news shouting protest slogans in broken Spanish, which in turn caused Mexican journalists to express outrage.

The INM wasted no time. The offenses were committed on May 1st, and by the evening of May 2nd, the offending gringos were on their way back to the U.S.A., their Mexican visas revoked.

According to Javier Moctezuma, Mexican subsecretary of Population, Migration and Religious Affairs (part of the Interior Department), the Americans were kicked out because “they violated article 43 of the General Population Law......article 43 has been violated and the standard must be applied.”

Article 43 of the General Law of Population (Ley General de Población) states that:

“The admission to the country of a foreigner obliges him to strictly comply with the conditions established for him in the immigration permit and the dispositions established by the respective laws.”

As an El Universal article puts it, “as any foreigner, they should not meddle in national affairs.”

Hypocrites?

[2strokebloke]

What is Mexico getting? Easy. It starts with an S and ends with a TUPID.
Some of these policies seem pretty asinine, but let's face it - one country meddling with its neighbor's affairs is hardly something unique to the Americas, so it's hardly surprising.

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

I heard about a law today about how an American citizen will get arrested if they get a job in Mexico. There are exceptions but if I were to move to Mexico now, buy a house, and get a job, they'd throw me in jail because I'm an American trying to get a job down there. Is there any truth to this?

I don't know if that is true or not but it is not that far off. To work in Mexico you need a company to sponsor you then permission and a work permit from the Mexican government. A lot of Americans live and work in Mexico. We have hundreds of American companies and manufacturers down there taking advantage of NAFTA and the low wages.

I use to work for Johnson & Johnson Medical. We had twin plant operations known as Maquilas. Periodically, I would have to go across the border between EL Paso and Juarez to help them resolve issues. I had a work permit which was renewed annually. They would send inspectors into the companies and check work permit and visa status. Their labor laws are complex, one sided, and have a tendency to take advantage of companies that set up shop there. Thats why a lot of plants are being sold, shut down or moved to other countries in Asia.

[MexRocket]

So what is the point of this? Is there something that bothers you? How does it directly affect you?

[xeroinfinity]

I hav heard this too, that we cant just move down there and start up a new life with out the Mexican Govrn.'s permission(or pay off's ).
Its all about money, plain and simple.

We hav sent 70-80 factories to Mexico over the last few years.
Hell look at the labels on products, "made in the USA",, "assembled in Mexico"?!
Guess its cheaper to send stuff there then to send it to Tiwain or china for assembly.

I knew some people who worked in the US making plastic parts(tv, vcrs, dss), well they would take trips to a plant in Mexico to see how they made these parts also, and to help with productions #'s.
They went, and had fun, bought stuff really cheap.
Said thier were signs on telephone poles telling them to come to Indiana and Illinoise for work.

Well 6 months or so after their last trip, thier factory closed up(800 workers out of work) and moved it to Mexico like over night.

[driftinggrifter2]

Originally Posted by MexRocket

So what is the point of this? Is there something that bothers you? How does it directly affect you?

One it's dealing with American politics so it really affects everyone.
Two if you read some of those things I mean come on opposing English as the official language of a American state.Some influential Mexicans go even further, speaking openly in terms of a reconquista (re-conquest). Author and commentator Elena Poniatowska, speaking in Venezuela, applauded a reconquista of the Southwest United States (briefly part of Mexico in the 19th Century) by means of immigration policy. Mexico’s leading man of letters, Carlos Fuentes, referred positively to a “silent reconquista” of the United States through means of the Spanish language (The Siglo, October 20, 2001).Secretary Ruffo’s attitude toward the border was expressed in his advice to would-be illegal crossers “If the border patrol finds you, try again.”

Come on these things are pretty bothersome.

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by driftinggrifter2

One it's dealing with American politics so it really affects everyone.
Two if you read some of those things I mean come on opposing English as the official language of a American state.Some influential Mexicans go even further, speaking openly in terms of a reconquista (re-conquest). Author and commentator Elena Poniatowska, speaking in Venezuela, applauded a reconquista of the Southwest United States (briefly part of Mexico in the 19th Century) by means of immigration policy. Mexico’s leading man of letters, Carlos Fuentes, referred positively to a “silent reconquista” of the United States through means of the Spanish language (The Siglo, October 20, 2001).Secretary Ruffo’s attitude toward the border was expressed in his advice to would-be illegal crossers “If the border patrol finds you, try again.”

Come on these things are pretty bothersome.

It makes you wonder.

The ‘Reconquista’—Mexico’s Dream of ‘Retaking’ the Southwest


http://www.barnesreview.org/The__Rec...ico_s_dre.html

http://www.aztlan.net/binational_thought.htm

http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/6/5/154335

[03cavPA]

I'd be willing to give them Kalifornia in return for leaving the rest of the country alone. They already pretty much have So. Cal. anyway.

Wonder how much worse it will have to get before it comes down to armed retaliation from Americans in those southern regions who will become so fed up with it that they see no other alternative?

Clashes between different social and ethnic groups are inevitable if this keeps up. Of course, the feds will benefit from all the turmoil, since the distraction will take the spotlight off some of their rather dubious goings-on.

[Broke_as_****]

Originally Posted by 03cavPA

Wonder how much worse it will have to get before it comes down to armed retaliation from Americans in those southern regions who will become so fed up with it that they see no other alternative?

That's one thing that will probably come from groups like the Minutemen (group of citizens that head out into the desert to block illegal entry) eventually and unfortunately. Some group of illegals will have a pistol, someone on the US side will have a shotgun and someone is going to get injured or killed. How that will affect the issue at hand is unknown but one can imagine that it could possibly inspire other shootings, incite riots among Mexican heavy populations and who knows what kind of legislature.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20...5306-7868r.htm

As America was and is a country made from the ex-citizens of many countries, if someone wants to come here, become a national, pay taxes and vote then I can't really condem them. However, if someone wants to sneak into the country, benefit from federal and state programs, not pay their fair share of taxes and then send that money home, get the fuck out.

America is not the worlds welfare system and is under no obligation to help those who do nothing for America.

[MexRocket]

Hmmm if you look at those speeches that were bolded, how long ago were they? Take into consideration in WHERE the speeches took place, Venezuela is not MEXICO, and they are VERY strict on things said about the United States, espically things that make them look good. Venezuela has openly defied American politics, and until recently My family and I didn't think them as a threat to the United States. But, with Iran testing out their naval power, Inviting several Latin American country heads of state to their country to see their point of view on the United States.

You are right, America should not be the welfare of the world. But if the constitution stays the same, it will continue to be the land of the free. Mexico doesn't have the same constitution,

THe reason why Mexico limits or "sets strict rules" on American based business' is that they know we as Americans are manipulating the cheap labor and are trying to MAXIMIZE profits to the penny. This is very unethical. The Mexican goverment has every right to do that, every day people struggle to make a $100 a week, because of cheap labor. (factory workers)

Get the fuck out? Are you fucking serious? Your saying your relatives didn't imigrate here and pay their "fair share" Bull shit. You need to see the other side of the spectrum, Mexico is still dominated by organized crime. There is nothing that a parent would be more scared of then their child kidnapped to work in some mob bosses factory. I wouldn't give two shits if people thought I was mooching off the USA, if I am providing a service to better my family or my community, then fuck being a citizen.

Look, I know most of you are concerned that you may be the minority soon, that's natural, but you CANNOT deny the basic freedoms to people. I agree, there should be a better way to control the imagration, but damn, put yourself in their shoes. What the fuck would you do? Stay in a country where life is a struggle from the get go, being scared everytime you walked out of your house. Or find a better life for yourself? If they are working, they are paying taxes, And for the fucking person with the last name Poniatowska That is a combination of a Mexican indian name, and a fucking POLISH last name. fuck her.


Understand that people can no longer be "race" oriented, we need to start thinking as a species, instead of worrying about people that just want to have chance to be somebody.

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by MexRocket

THe reason why Mexico limits or "sets strict rules" on American based business' is that they know we as Americans are manipulating the cheap labor and are trying to MAXIMIZE profits to the penny. This is very unethical. The Mexican goverment has every right to do that, every day people struggle to make a $100 a week, because of cheap labor. (factory workers) .

I think you need to get your facts straight. Mexico is lucky to have any company not just American doing business there. There are a lot of foreign companies there not just American taking advantage of the cheap labor.

These so called factory workers are well taken care of. It is better than getting zero. These companies brought jobs to Mexico that the Mexican government or private companies could not provide. During the shifts at our twin-plants workers are supplied with meals and there is on-site medical. The so called Mexican elite and educated like the managers, engineers and professionals like accounting staff make a hell of a lot more than $100 per week.

So just who is being unethical.

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by MexRocket

Hmmm if you look at those speeches that were bolded, how long ago were they? Take into consideration in WHERE the speeches took place, Venezuela is not MEXICO, and they are VERY strict on things said about the United States, espically things that make them look good. Venezuela has openly defied American politics, and until recently My family and I didn't think them as a threat to the United States. But, with Iran testing out their naval power, Inviting several Latin American country heads of state to their country to see their point of view on the United States.

Mexico is saying the same stuff if you looked at a couple of those links.

Originally Posted by MexRocket

You are right, America should not be the welfare of the world. But if the constitution stays the same, it will continue to be the land of the free. Mexico doesn't have the same constitution,

Neither do a whole lot of countries. So should we bring most of Africa here as well? How about several parts of Eastern Europe?

Originally Posted by MexRocket

THe reason why Mexico limits or "sets strict rules" on American based business' is that they know we as Americans are manipulating the cheap labor and are trying to MAXIMIZE profits to the penny. This is very unethical. The Mexican goverment has every right to do that, every day people struggle to make a $100 a week, because of cheap labor. (factory workers)

How is that unethical? We're getting our roof re-done due to a storm we had. Is it unethical that we went to somebody who offered to do it cheaper than somebody else?

Originally Posted by MexRocket

Get the fuck out? Are you fucking serious? Your saying your relatives didn't imigrate here and pay their "fair share" Bull shit. You need to see the other side of the spectrum, Mexico is still dominated by organized crime. There is nothing that a parent would be more scared of then their child kidnapped to work in some mob bosses factory. I wouldn't give two shits if people thought I was mooching off the USA, if I am providing a service to better my family or my community, then fuck being a citizen.

See the other side of the spectrum? Oh yes, they're ALL just poor families wanting a better life and don't want to mess with us or alter our system. They are all just perfect little angels

As I've stated, we were cutting down on our meth labs and dealers here in Oklahoma due to cold pill restrictions. Our friendly little Mexican neighbors though are bringing it in for a higher price and crime is ON THE RISE since this has started to happen. I hope you know that not everybody crossing the border is a perfect little angel.

Also, fuck being a citizen? Oh yes, we should give EVERYBODY a hand out because they've had a tough life. As I said, lets bring in Africa, Eastern Europe, parts of the Middle East, parts of Asia, South America, and any third world country. Sound good? We'll support all of them because they live in a rough place and don't have much money.

We can't support the whole world. Also as a tax payer, I don't want to support the whole world. Americans come first in my eyes and then the world. Racist asshole or a patriot of one's country? You decide.

I'm a firm supporter of this...if the world doesn't want our nose in their business, then stop taking our money. You want our money, then we're going to sniff around and see where it's going.

Originally Posted by MexRocket

Look, I know most of you are concerned that you may be the minority soon, that's natural, but you CANNOT deny the basic freedoms to people. I agree, there should be a better way to control the imagration, but damn, put yourself in their shoes. What the fuck would you do? Stay in a country where life is a struggle from the get go, being scared everytime you walked out of your house. Or find a better life for yourself? If they are working, they are paying taxes, And for the fucking person with the last name Poniatowska That is a combination of a Mexican indian name, and a fucking POLISH last name. fuck her.

Yes, I give money to the salvation army and things like that because I do like to help. I was told and believe to help people who don't have as much as me. But frankly I don't sit around thinking about the other people of the world and how they're suffering. I'm thinking about school and stuff like that. I also don't want to give all the money I worked for to all the people of the world so they can live a little better. I want to have some fun with it and spend it on something I really don't need but would like anyway.

Maybe I'm a self centered asshole? I don't know.

Originally Posted by MexRocket

Understand that people can no longer be "race" oriented, we need to start thinking as a species, instead of worrying about people that just want to have chance to be somebody.

Tell that to the illegals. They're the ones who seem to be raising anarchy.

[carrrnuttt]

Originally Posted by MexRocket

Hmmm if you look at those speeches that were bolded, how long ago were they? Take into consideration in WHERE the speeches took place, Venezuela is not MEXICO, and they are VERY strict on things said about the United States, espically things that make them look good. Venezuela has openly defied American politics, and until recently My family and I didn't think them as a threat to the United States. But, with Iran testing out their naval power, Inviting several Latin American country heads of state to their country to see their point of view on the United States.

You are right, America should not be the welfare of the world. But if the constitution stays the same, it will continue to be the land of the free. Mexico doesn't have the same constitution,

THe reason why Mexico limits or "sets strict rules" on American based business' is that they know we as Americans are manipulating the cheap labor and are trying to MAXIMIZE profits to the penny. This is very unethical. The Mexican goverment has every right to do that, every day people struggle to make a $100 a week, because of cheap labor. (factory workers)

Get the fuck out? Are you fucking serious? Your saying your relatives didn't imigrate here and pay their "fair share" Bull shit. You need to see the other side of the spectrum, Mexico is still dominated by organized crime. There is nothing that a parent would be more scared of then their child kidnapped to work in some mob bosses factory. I wouldn't give two shits if people thought I was mooching off the USA, if I am providing a service to better my family or my community, then fuck being a citizen.

Look, I know most of you are concerned that you may be the minority soon, that's natural, but you CANNOT deny the basic freedoms to people. I agree, there should be a better way to control the imagration, but damn, put yourself in their shoes. What the fuck would you do? Stay in a country where life is a struggle from the get go, being scared everytime you walked out of your house. Or find a better life for yourself? If they are working, they are paying taxes, And for the fucking person with the last name Poniatowska That is a combination of a Mexican indian name, and a fucking POLISH last name. fuck her.


Understand that people can no longer be "race" oriented, we need to start thinking as a species, instead of worrying about people that just want to have chance to be somebody.

Dude.

How about instead of littering America's streets with protests, why don't all these "reconquistadores" take back their OWN fucking country? They're so fucking brave and outspoken here, why not do the same in Mexico?

Freedom? You consider entering a country in basic violation of the country's laws a FREEDOM?

Lastly, I'm a son of a LEGAL immigrant with the last name of RAMOS, though I'm not Mexican. Though my father was wealthy, which gave him the means of moving to the US legally, he also became the provider for his 4 brothers and sisters at the young age of 17 after his father died. He wasn't even close to being rich at all then. He worked hard, and became a well-off businessman in the process. He did all this in his OWN country, who wasn't any less corrupt than the Mexican government is.

I repeat, I have NOOO sympathy.

[Gohan Ryu]

Originally Posted by MexRocket

I wouldn't give two shits if people thought I was mooching off the USA, if I am providing a service to better my family or my community, then fuck being a citizen.

So I can illegally tap into your bank account to feed my family, and then I can say something intelligent like "fuck being MexRocket, this money is mine now and I really don't care that it's going to be 10 times harder for him to feed his family now"...that's ok, right? That's what you are saying when you say "Fuck being a citizen".

Don't be a hypocrite - give me your bank account number.

Originally Posted by MexRocket

If they are working, they are paying taxes.

No, if they are working here illegally they are being paid under the table, which means they aren't paying taxes. If the bill passes it will be legal to hire these immigrants, then they will pay taxes, and only then will they be tolerable to us taxpaying citizens. Get it?

These idiots are protesting a bill that will make it legal for them to work here and pay taxes. That means they don't want to pay their fair share, yet they have access to our TAX-PAID education and health care system...greedy freeloaders aren't welcome in any country.

[xeroinfinity]

Damn guys!
Illegal means illegal!

I dont think it matters if you hav lived here for 50 years, and worked, supported half your country, if you came to the US illegally, then you should be deported/arrested.

Or do it the american way, pay a huge fine, house arrest, probation(pay more fines), and go to some meetings (more time) that hav nothign to do with immigration, then maybe you can stay. Maybe!

This might be the land of the FREE but everyone has to earn thier stay, like all the rest of us.

F*** if I got cash, and payed no taxes, I'd own me a Lambo,Ferrari,Mcclairen F1...etc etc.
Those tax dollars that arent getting collected has made freedom cost more and more everyday for those of us who do pay. Not to mention all the welfare dollars getting sucked up by the indigent bastards. Thiers enough legals to run us dry on funds.

I totally understand thier point of getting out of a shit hole country and make better for them selves, but hey you dont see me or my neighbor running to Canada now do ya!
It doesnt matter where you live in the world, you'll always want better, and more of it for less.

I'm gonna send out the chupacabra .