head gasket gone repair gone wrong??

[gord weir]

on a 1996 3.8l with 170k km

is there anyway to reassemble the heads after doing the gaskets that would cause antrfreeze to shoot out of the spark plug holes

[LeSabre97mint]

Originally Posted by gord weir

on a 1996 3.8l with 170k km

is there anyway to reassemble the heads after doing the gaskets that would cause antrfreeze to shoot out of the spark plug holes

Hello

What was the reason why you had to replace the gaskets? Over heat? Gasket let go? Did you get the heads checked for cracks and resurfaced? Did you make sure the gaskets were put on correctly? They should of had the word "top" written on them some where. Did you use new headbolts? Torque them correctly? Correct pattern, and tightness?

How many pistons are pushing the coolant? Is this happening on both banks? Have you done a repair like this before? Does the engine run now? Have you ran a compression test?

Did you have coolant in the oil before you took off the heads for the new gaskets? Bearings do not like coolant. It will eat them out.

Have you noticed any startup noise from the rods?

Post back with what you know. There are a lot of good members on here. We should be able to help you out.

Regards

Dan

[gord weir]

howdy again. i tryed posting this sunday night but kept crashing on the site, so i quickly posted monday before work. here is the post i was attempting origonally.....

i purchased a 96 3.8l with 170k km ish from a chap that said he just changed the head gaskets. a quick test drive was uneventfull and actually a treat after 4 years driving a very high milage (500k km and counting) geo metro. on the trip home with the van tho i noticed a few problems. mainly erratic tempature guage and no internal heat.

the next evening i starting going over the engine in more detail. there was a leak showing at the front of the intake manifold by the bypass pipe. figuring it was just the intake manifold gasket, i proceeded with the tear down( after spending hours reading the forums)

1st problem..... the rad would not drain, completely plugged.
2nd problem.... way too much silicone everywhere
3rd problem..... with the intake manifold off i noticed......HE SILICONED THE HEAD GASKETS!!

15 hours later i fininshed the cleaning and reassebly. all tourques as per Haines manual.

most of the coolent ports on the head were plugged due to the silicone and assuming same with the rad.

the way my weekend was going.... of coures it did not start. after an hour of checking all vaccume/wires/bolts i finally dicovered a major issue. with the plugs removed and the engine turing over, it spews antifreeze out of the plug holes. also there is bubbleing in the rad overflow. i only tested 4 cylenders but i assume the other 2 are pooched aswell. also the oil level rose about a liter, so i assume there is now antrifreeze in the oil.

is there anyway to assemble the intake/gaskets in such a way to cause this?
what are the odds that both heads cracked in such a way to affect all 3 cylenders on both heads?

after talking with 2 seperate repair shops, i am leaning towards both heads being severly warped/internally cracked.... any other ideas?

i purchased this van in a hurry due to my metro dieing ( first time in 4 years i could honestly say i had no idea what is wrong with the car) luckily the car is running again (only thing i can think there is a bad tank of gas,, after doing the fuel filter, fuel pump, distributer, full tuneup)

i will be starting to tear it down again tonight. any suggestions on what to look for? with this much antifreeze spewing i am hoping its an obvious mistake on assembly. way my week has been tho......

[LeSabre97mint]

Hello

Carefully look if you put the headgaskets on correctly. Next, (even if you didn't put the gaskets on correctly) bring the heads to a good engine shop and have the valves checked for sealing, have the gasket surface resurfaced (it needs to be REALLY) smooth!

I would be really worried what else this guy did on this van. Silicone on headgaskets is, like you implied, is a big no no! Keep your eyes open for other trouble!

Another thing to think about is your O2 sensors. They don't like anti-freeze. They get coated and don't work as well. There is a seller on ebay that looks like he has a good price for O2's. Check it out.

Regards

Dan

[wiswind]

As advised, get the heads to a good shop.
If they are real bad, you will need to buy new / refurbishded heads.

If it comes to new heads.... give these guys a look.
http://www.trademotion.com/partlocat...?siteid=214072

They list the head with valves for $147
Without valves for $201.39.
Maybe 1 is refurbished?

They have the head gasket for $26.11.

They have a link to a parts break down..... You will notice that they give a nice discount from Ford List price.
The site is for Mellennium Ford, a dealership in the Seattle area.
I have found them to be very good to do business with.....
I think that you would be best to buy Ford parts for this repair.

If you look on the same site, under Fuel System - Fuel Induction - Intake - Manifold Gasket, You will find the lower intake manifold gasket Left and Right for the 3.8L engine. You DO want to replace the lower intake manifold gaskets. They are NOT re-useable....and are a failure item on the '96 3.8L engine.
FORD instructions are to replace the lower intake manifold gaskets whenever the lower intake manifold is removed. The upper manifold gaskets are re-useable.



Under Electrical - Powertrain Control, you will find find the oxygen sensor for just under $60. You will want at least 2, one for each side of the engine, before the catalytic converter. You have a chance that the ones after the converters are OK. But, in worst case, you might have to replace those as well.
I would pay the extra for the Motorcraft brand. I paid about $56 for Motorcraft brand from www.rockauto.com. Cheap ones will not cost much less than the genuine OEM.

While you have things apart.....check the thermostat to make sure that there is not RTV junk in it. If you replace the thermostat, get the correct temperature......the old time trick of getting a cooler thermostat than specified is NOT a good idea on the newer cars. At best, you will have crappy fuel economy with a cooler thermostat.
Also, clean the EGR ports, and clean the fuel injectors....spray some cleaner to clean the surface of the spray end of each injector. You may want to replace the "O" ring seals on the injectors.....at the very least.....put a slight amound of oil onto the "O" rings to help them slide into place and seal better.

I have a lot of pictures of various jobs that I have done on my '96 3.8L.
You will note that I have NOT torn down as far as you are going.....
http://community.webshots.com/album/201931518cScpNK

[gord weir]

howdy again folks. the nightmare continues.........

i tore it back down during the week and sent the heads to a shop on friday morning to get inspected/machined. the chap said they were severly warped (7/1000?) also found out that i had origonally installed the wrong intake manifold gasket set. after 30min at the ford dealers parts counter, we concluded that the gaskets should be 4mm and the set should be light blue in color. it took 3 hours of running all over town to find the correct gasket sets for the job. can you belive ford did not have a single set of head gaskets for this motor in all of Alberta??!!!

anyway, had the van back together by 8pm saterday but.......

1. when the van origonally started it was blowing tons of white smoke. had to open all doors to the garage and it was still like a sauna in there. after about an hour of total idle time it cleared up but when restarting it it will blow white for a few mins. i assume/hope/pray this will clear up soon.

2. the motor will not start unless the gas petal is pinned to the floor

3. it runs pretty rough, feels almost like 2 cyclenders are missing. in the roughly 1 hour it has been running, the rad hoses are still cold/cool. the new thermostat is a 190 i think. parts place said there ws only 1 type listed for that motor.the thermostat does not seem to be opening. the tempeture guage only went about half way tho. the idle seems to go from about 600ish up to 900ish and back down with the ac thing clicking( compressor?). when giving some gas to get rpm to 2000ish the motor sounds fine, just a bit of roughness.(and sounds like the rear intake manifold gasket is out a bit...doh!)

4. after idiling the motor for a few mins and turning it off, there is a hiss somewhere around the passenger rear side of the motor that lasts for about 30s and goes away. i am assuming its a vacuum leak and the cause of the rough idle (just trying to wake up and get back out there to the van)

5 low oil pressure light came on. i assume it is caused by all that junk in the motor from the last chap is clogging the filter so i used some engine flush and changed the oil and filter. will check to see if that fixed it later this morning

6 and yes, the cel is on. was off for the first half hour tho,, i was so happy,lol. i know alot of antifreeze got into the exhaust so i am assuming the oxygen sensors might be pooched. would this cause the rough/erratic idleing?

after sweepingcleaning up a bit, i came accross an u shaped vaccume hose. i remeber reading/seeing pictures on another site of a codes 171/174 fix. in those pictures it showed a hose somewhat like i found under the van except it is a different/newer motor in the pictures, and i dont remember seeing this hose befor (fell off from somewhere?) i have a copy of the intake assembly parts blowup from the dealer and cannot see this hose on it, so may have come off another section of the motor?

also to be on the safe side, what is the correct torque for the lower intake manifold bolts? i only applied silicon to the 4 corners of of the lower intake gasket things where the meet, correct?
the egr ports i cleaned out, and gave a quick spray of wd40 to the injectors befor tapping them back in. the o rings felt fine so i did not replace them.
this is the second set of head gaskets i have done on this motor in 2 weekends. both sets of gaskets from 2 differnt suppliers were the same in that the gasket sets were identical. it is like they made one for the left bank and just copied it for the right side. both had "front" printed on both sides of the gasket but no left or right. one side of the gasket looks reinforced (metal tab going from cylender to cylender) but the other side does not. if you place the gaskets correctly as per the "front" stamped on both sides, you end up with 1 gasket witht the "reenforcement" facing up and the other facing down. should i do it that way or have them so the reneforcemnets are facing the same way (both up or down instead of one of each)

anyway, sorry to ramble (still tired). any thoughts or things to look for?

thanks again
(edited because of coffee kicking in and more questions/thoughts pouring out)

[wiswind]

I am planning to do the lower intake manifold gaskets on my '96 3.8L soon. I have had the upper intake off, but this will be the first time for the lower.
Anyhow, this is why I have read up on the lower intake manifold gaskets.

I have a subscription to www.alldatadiy.com for my windstar. I think that it is worth it. You will find some of the information at www.autozone.com

TSB # 99-20-7 is a little different than the repair instructions.
The bolts for the lower intake manifold are to be torqued to "71 inch pounds, and then rotate all bolts in sequence another 90 degrees"
NOTE: That is INCH lbs, Not ft lbs !!!!!!! 90 degrees would be 1/4 turn


They say to install bolts #3 and 4 FIRST and tighten them to align the lower intake manifold and to facilitate the installation of the other bolts.
You should be able to get the torque sequence (order to tighten the bolts) from the autozone website.

The application of the sealer at the 4 corners where the head meets the block, before placing the "end seals" is correct.

Also, the TSB and repair instructions, say to put Pipe Thread Sealer With Teflon onto the threads of ALL the lower intake manifold bolts before installing them.

TSB # 02-1-4 for head gasket replacement states that NO sealer aids are to be used for the head gasket. The gasket MUST be fitted dry with no supplemental sealing aids.
There is information stating how to remove the heads, and to make sure that the gasket mating surfaces are completely clean.
You need NEW "Torque To Yield" head bolts for the installation.
Follow the re-assembly instructions very carefully, they list a "3 step" torque process, follow that in the correct bolt tighten pattern.
The TSB also states to use a good, accurate torque wrench.

[gord weir]

well, for those following along at home....

after twice changing out the head gaskets, tons of cleaning, and tons of cash., i have finnally given up on this motor.

had the motor running on sunday and it was definitly still loosing antifreeze and running very rough.

just finished a compression test (both wet and dry). one cyclinder at 160, the rest ranging from 60-110 dry, and with wet about 30-40 better.

time to find a decent used motor or buy a short block and start over.

what year(s) motor will fit and what year motor would be best to put in

so far to this point i have spent $1500ish on parts/machining/tools for this $2000 van with much more fun to come

[LeSabre97mint]

Hello

Sorry to hear that things aren't working out for you. I do wish you were closer, I would be tempted to drop by and check things out. Any one closer to this guy that would be willing to check it out?

I can't answer your question about years of engines fitting yours...

Did you do a compressiong test before you pulled it apart the first time?

I take it that the shop tested the valves for sealing and cracks?

Could it be that the valves may be adjusted too tight causing lower compression? Something to check.

What was the condition of the cylinder walls? Any scoring? (vertical lines)

Where else did you find silicone?

If you get a used engine, I would pull the pan and inspect the rod bearings. I pulled mine at 177,000 miles and most all of the rods were showing copper on the uppers. #6 was the worst and I bet that it was making the startup noise that I was hearing.

That's wierd that the engine would only start with the accel. to the floor... Getting too much gas???

Well keep us posted.



Regards

Dan

[bgriek]

could the u-shaped hose be for the fuel pressure reg? would this cause a very rich mixture explaining the need to hold gas pedal to floor?

bgriek

[alofile]

I just did the headgasket in my 98 WS with 3.8. I am so lucky after put every thing back together. I just mix up the spark plug wire. The WS is still running good after 200Km. I just use one weekend to finish the job. But I want to tell you don't try to finish that job in 2 days. BTW the fuel line can't mix with the coolant line. I think you should check the gasket before put the head on or is it the right gasket for your WS.
Good Luck

[LeSabre97mint]

Originally Posted by alofile

I just did the headgasket in my 98 WS with 3.8. I am so lucky after put every thing back together. I just mix up the spark plug wire. The WS is still running good after 200Km. I just use one weekend to finish the job. But I want to tell you don't try to finish that job in 2 days. BTW the fuel line can't mix with the coolant line. I think you should check the gasket before put the head on or is it the right gasket for your WS.
Good Luck

Hello

I was wondering what went wrong with your 98 as you had to replace the headgaskets? I just got a 98 with 125,000+ on it and want to be prepaired. I curretly have a 95 that I replaced the headgaskets on. So far so good. I have about 20,000 miles on the new gaskets. The 95 headgaskets lost the compression ring due to the supporting gasket material getting soft.

Regards

Dan

[gord weir]

another update.....

pulled a short block from the wreckers that seems good. no scoreing on the cylender walls and everything else looks good. in the middle of getting all the gaskets/bearings/rings orgonanized and will have the new motor assembled this weekend (hopefully) with the swap happening next weekend.

reason i went this way is that Ford wants $6200 !!! for a full block (they wont do short block on those) and another shop wanted $4400.

guestimating the full price on the rebuild/swap will be about $1200 between parts and $ to a buddy for helping.

just had the heads rechecked at a different shop (just to be on the safe side). ends up the heads are still warped 2-4 thousands. but at least they are not cracked.

i will check the full pressure reg and see if the vacuume hose is there but for the life of me i cant remember seeing it when i origonally tore the motor down.

the coolent lose after the 2nd head gasket job seems to be either a cracked cyclender (will find out this weekend when we finish the dissasembly in van) or an internal leak at the timing cover.

after all this $/time/stress i had better get 5 years and 400k km out of this van!!

[alofile]

Be honest, I didn't know the coolant leaking from the head gasket or lower intake gasket. I only saw the coolant from the corner of head and lower intake. So I replace all of the gasket. If I have the time, I am going to replace the front cover gasket too.

[wiswind]

When the heads have been serviced....you will need to get the 4mm lower intake manifold gaskets.
I would get the head, lower intake manifold, and timing cover gaskets from FORD only. They have made updates to them....that are not into the aftermarket yet. The gaskets from FORD are CHEAP. Maybe more than aftermarket....but still VERY CHEAP as compared to the labor.
After going to all this trouble.....you want to have the best stuff in there that you can get.

The free information on autozone's website lists instructions for the timing cover.....and the other gaskets as well.

Silicone is bad stuff....you want to clean as much of that out of the engine as you can. The RTV for engines has NO silicone.....and should say "sensor safe". Oxygen sensors can fail from the gases that the silicone sealant gives off.