Conspiracy nuts and their detractors.

[carrrnuttt]

I would love to have all of you guys' inputs on this: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...59923762628848

It was linked to me by an AF member.

I would say it has some VERY compelling arguments, though I am not taking everything at face value.

It's an hour and 20 minutes long, and I have only seen half at this point, but I wanted to put this up now, and hopefully have some feedback in here tomorrow.

I would love to hear how the anti-conspiracy people refute what seem to be solid conclusions, based on actual footage and eyewitness accounts, not to mention simple common sense.

Dis•cuss.

[tenguzero]

This is yet another video I've seen documenting very compelling evidence toward alternative events surrounding 9-11.

The biggest concern I have about all this, is also the big question posed at the end of this movie (the question that ultimately dogs all who would attempt to present findings contrary to what the suits in Washington give us) and that is Why? This is where they ALL seem to break down, IMO (even the Administration's reasoning.) For all the compelling evidence that these documentaries offer in respect to events happening far different than what we're officially told, no one can seem to give solid reasoning why it happened that way. And thus since a majority of the nation needs to believe something, we naturally gravitate towards buying into what the most seemingly authoritative and official body would present to us -- and not surprisingly that ISN'T the findings of isolated groups or individuals. Example: seeing as we're on Automotive Forums, it's reasonable to assume many of us have had run-ins with the law to some degree or another at some point. This being said, I think it's obvious many of us would agree that, without some sort of truly compelling evidence to back us up (or a documented screw up on the side of the law) a court will probably side with a police officer, because they have a badge and we don't.

And thus the public turns toward our "elected officials" foremost for absolution -- even if the "official" case is full of more holes than a cheese grater, and ultimately no less questionable than so called "conspiracy theories".

After all, I'm sure the average Enron employee/investor was far more apt to watch his/her back against robbery potentially being perpetrated by another average person from the bottom up -- never suspecting that it would come from the top down. And so, for my own good, I give just as much validity to a documentary like this as I do to what the government is telling me -- hell, at least the conspiracy group is giving me all their hard facts and evidence so I can judge for myself-

-and that's FAR more than we, the public, have gotten from our "leaders".

[directory]

i like reading about this stuff. it allows me to take 2 opposing views and make my own conclusion.

[Muscletang]

Interesting and I must say it does raise some questions. I do have some questions though if they're wanting us to buy it all.

(1.) Why isn't there more evidence like a paper trail or a leak in the system? If this is true from all their evidence then two branches of our government were in on this (maybe a third for all we know), the FBI, the CIA, NYC officials who were higher ups, the Air Force, the Army, NORAD, certain FAA officials, demolition crews, Wall Street higher ups, and certain people here and there to help "support" things.

That's a whole lot of people to keep "hush hush" on this whole subject. How do you keep them all quiet and how do you keep the planning of this stuff under the carpet? Yes we heard from fire fighters, police, the media, civilians, and saw several reports. Shouldn't we hear from high up government brass what really happened? Shouldn't there be a paper trail somewhere? If the government pulled this off they didn't do or plan it by word of mouth.

Shouldn't we have heard on 20/20, 60 Minutes, or some other show that "somebody" had come out and said, "the government did 9/11, this way, and that way, and they did it for this, this, and this, and finally I know this because I heard it from this guy, that guy, saw this report and that report, and had access to this, this, and this."? Why aren't people coming forward about this or showing hard evidence?

(2.) Where are the people? If they original passengers got off, where are they? Didn't the video say the total number of people in all the flights were seen on the ground in Cleveland? If a military plane flew into these buildings, what happened to the passengers on the commercial flights? Are they in a hanger somewhere? Were they killed off? Were they put into the military planes and forced to sit there and die? Are they living amoung us under a different I.D.? Were they shipped to another country? Where are they?

(3.) Ok, lets say I believe this 100% with no doubt at all. Why was it done then? If the government did this, it's not all the presidents fault but the government body. If the government did this, our entire government is corrupt, evil, and has some plans for all of this. As I said, the president probably knew, but I promise you there were people in Congress who probably had a nice idea as well. Who knows, maybe a justice or two on the Supreme Court? Not to mention they hinted towards the Mayor's office in NYC.

(A.) Why would our government body do this to the American people?
(B.) Do we have some truely evil people in the White House, Congress, Supreme Court (maybe), Pentagon, city official's offices, and other government organizations? Have the American people elected Hitlers all over the country for the past 15 years?

One last thing I'd like to say.

IF our government did all of this, they're all at fault. You can say it was the liberals for sure, the conservatives did this, only the Republican party would go so low, Democrates are evil and this shows it, but the truth is I'm sure a person from each group was in on it.

[TexasF355F1]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

Interesting and I must say it does raise some questions. I do have some questions though if they're wanting us to buy it all.

(1.) Why isn't there more evidence like a paper trail or a leak in the system? If this is true from all their evidence then two branches of our government were in on this (maybe a third for all we know), the FBI, the CIA, NYC officials who were higher ups, the Air Force, the Army, NORAD, certain FAA officials, demolition crews, Wall Street higher ups, and certain people here and there to help "support" things.

That's a whole lot of people to keep "hush hush" on this whole subject. How do you keep them all quiet and how do you keep the planning of this stuff under the carpet? Yes we heard from fire fighters, police, the media, civilians, and saw several reports. Shouldn't we hear from high up government brass what really happened? Shouldn't there be a paper trail somewhere? If the government pulled this off they didn't do or plan it by word of mouth.

Shouldn't we have heard on 20/20, 60 Minutes, or some other show that "somebody" had come out and said, "the government did 9/11, this way, and that way, and they did it for this, this, and this, and finally I know this because I heard it from this guy, that guy, saw this report and that report, and had access to this, this, and this."? Why aren't people coming forward about this or showing hard evidence?

(2.) Where are the people? If they original passengers got off, where are they? Didn't the video say the total number of people in all the flights were seen on the ground in Cleveland? If a military plane flew into these buildings, what happened to the passengers on the commercial flights? Are they in a hanger somewhere? Were they killed off? Were they put into the military planes and forced to sit there and die? Are they living amoung us under a different I.D.? Were they shipped to another country? Where are they?

(3.) Ok, lets say I believe this 100% with no doubt at all. Why was it done then? If the government did this, it's not all the presidents fault but the government body. If the government did this, our entire government is corrupt, evil, and has some plans for all of this. As I said, the president probably knew, but I promise you there were people in Congress who probably had a nice idea as well. Who knows, maybe a justice or two on the Supreme Court? Not to mention they hinted towards the Mayor's office in NYC.

(A.) Why would our government body do this to the American people?
(B.) Do we have some truely evil people in the White House, Congress, Supreme Court (maybe), Pentagon, city official's offices, and other government organizations? Have the American people elected Hitlers all over the country for the past 15 years?

One last thing I'd like to say.

IF our government did all of this, they're all at fault. You can say it was the liberals for sure, the conservatives did this, only the Republican party would go so low, Democrates are evil and this shows it, but the truth is I'm sure a person from each group was in on it.

It never accounts for the people that died. No conspiracy theories do. They draw up their own. Plus since it is video, all videos can be edited and fixed to a persons liking. I really wish people would just get off of "the government purposely did this on 911". It doesn't make any sense to anyone with commong logical sense.

Note: I didn't even click on the link, but I'm pretty sure its the same video that's been posted on here a time or two before.

[2.2 Straight six]

i think i'd b subjected to a lot of shit from others if i spoke my views on this matter. i have my own theories but until i have some kind of evidence i wont offend others with them.

i will, however give you another video:

http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/

watch the flash presentation.

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by 2.2 Straight six

i think i'd b subjected to a lot of shit from others if i spoke my views on this matter. i have my own theories but until i have some kind of evidence i wont offend others with them.

Well I'm rather curious now about them. If you don't feel like sharing though I'd like a PM about it. I promise right here I won't give you any crap or anything for expressing your opinion or view. I'd just like to hear what you have to say on it.

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by 2.2 Straight six

i think i'd b subjected to a lot of shit from others if i spoke my views on this matter. i have my own theories but until i have some kind of evidence i wont offend others with them.

i will, however give you another video:

http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/

watch the flash presentation.

Here is a link with another conspiracy nut version of the Pentagon attack, however, with better still images and perspective:

http://911truth.tripod.com/pentagon.html

His conclusion was that it was a U.S. Global Hawk aircraft.

The major fallacy to his argument are the pieces of debris of what appears to jet parts with distinct American Airlines markings. Please note that the engine parts are not consistent with a military jet engine from a Global Hawk. The Global Hawk uses a smaller GEF110 series jet engine. The engine debris is consistent with a 757 jet engine.

My son is a jet engine tech in the US Air Force. I had him review this link and he said the engine debris is too large for a Global Hawk. The GEF110 series engine is also used in the F16, F15, U2 tactical and reconnaisance aircraft.

That certainly blows this idiots theory. You all can believe what you want. IMO it is simply pure bulls$#t.

Edited:

And for you non-believers, here is a pic of my son in an F16.

[carrrnuttt]

Originally Posted by TexasF355F1

Note: I didn't even click on the link, but I'm pretty sure its the same video that's been posted on here a time or two before.

It's not.

This is totally new. It does carry footage from the previous vids, but this is the most compelling one of them all. It also has a lot of deductions/conclusions based on irrefutable science and facts, along with actual footage and commentaries that have never been seen since that fateful day. It also makes you wonder why they have never been seen--especially the explosion comments.

Basically, it was all done on (seemingly) straight-up, without all the emotions or call for emotions that the previous videos had. It presents things, and hopefully makes you think. Look at how it made even Muscletang pause.

Check this link for a deeper look at the science that calls into questions the official government story on how the towers collapsed: http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

Metal was still MOLTEN underneath the wreckage even weeks after 9/11. The metal used in that building was UL-certified to withstand temperatures that for burning aviation fuel, is physically impossible to attain.

That's just one of the many questions raised by the video.

As for the question of why, which Muscletang asks. Tell me, will Bush have nearly the power that he has if he didn't have 9/11, Osama, or Al Qaeda to call on our fears about?

"You're either against us, or with us."

I'm looking for people to view this vid to discuss it, because the video is hard to ignore, like I did the previous ones. Even if 1/8th of this damned video is true...God help us.

I am truly looking for a convincing argument to refute this video, for it pains me physically to believe our own goverment can even hint at betraying us like this.

Ah whatever. None of you will even bother thinking about it. One even openly admits to forming an opinion prior to viewing the material being discussed. I hope I am wrong about that last part.

[carrrnuttt]

Originally Posted by bnaylor3400

Here is a link with another conspiracy nut version of the Pentagon attack, however, with better still images and perspective:

http://911truth.tripod.com/pentagon.html

His conclusion was that it was a U.S. Global Hawk aircraft.

The major fallacy to his argument are the pieces of debris of what appears to jet parts with distinct American Airlines markings. Please note that the engine parts are not consistent with a military jet engine from a Global Hawk. The Global Hawk uses a smaller GEF110 series jet engine. The engine debris is consistent with a 757 jet engine.

My son is a jet engine tech in the US Air Force. I had him review this link and he said the engine debris is too large for a Global Hawk. The GEF110 series engine is also used in the F16, F15, U2 tactical and reconnaisance aircraft.

That certainly blows this idiots theory. You all can believe what you want. IMO it is simply pure bulls$#t.

Did you watch the video I posted? Send it to him. I'd love for your son to rebuke what was shown in that vid about the Pentagon crash.

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by carrrnuttt

Look at how it made even Muscletang pause.

Well I'm glad I'm able to help. I'm not as closed minded though as some people think. I wouldn't say I paused though. I'd rather say I pondered.

Originally Posted by carrrnuttt

Even if 1/8th of this damned video is true...God help us..

If 1/8th is true then God help us from Bush who is claiming to do God's work

So with every new president we start to fear the government more and more?

So Clinton shows how the government can take us (Waco, Elian Gonzalez kidnapping), and Bush shows how the government will use us (9/11)?

[BNaylor]

Originally Posted by carrrnuttt

Did you watch the video I posted? Send it to him. I'd love for your son to rebuke what was shown in that vid about the Pentagon crash.

He doesn't need to. It would only be an exercise in futility. I've wasted enough of his time. He takes matters like this very seriously and does not think it is funny or accurate. Plus none of us are qualified to make any assessment. The evidence of the debris from an American Airlines 757 at the Pentagon crash site is clear and compelling. In the end you will only believe what you want to believe.

Yep, it is a vast right wing conspiracy.

[-The Stig-]

Originally Posted by bnaylor3400

He doesn't need to. It would only be an exercise in futility. I've wasted enough of his time. He takes matters like this very seriously and does not think it is funny or accurate. Plus none of us are qualified to make any assessment. The evidence of the debris from an American Airlines 757 at the Pentagon crash site is clear and compelling. In the end you will only believe what you want to believe.

Yep, it is a vast right wing conspiracy.

If a 757 really did hit the Pentagon, what happened to all the rest of the plane? Nothing was left.

And what about all the video tapes that the FBI collected moments after the crash from the neighboring hotel and gas station. But to only release 5 frames of a parking lot camera from across the complex, that show no 757 hitting the building.

Infact, in one of the frames, you can see a grey airplane type figure that has the rough outline of a Tomahawk Cruise Missile. If it was a 757, why not release all the tapes and show them? We have multiple videos of planes hitting the towers, that nobody can deny... we know what hit the towers, so why not prove to us a 757 hit the Pentagon? All we saw was a compressor housing and hub bearing, which didn't seem to fit that of a 757... being that it's only 3ft across and not 11ft or whatever a Pratt&Whitney/Rolls-Royce turbo jet engine is off of a 757.

How about all the reports of people smelling Cordite after the 'hit'? Airplanes don't crash and smell like Cordite. Explosives do though.

I'm a big fan of America, love this place just as much as the next fella. But, c'mon... I'm rather ashamed that we even have conspiracies on this sort of thing.

Consider this point if anything:

Pearl Harbor, December 7th 1941. It is historically proven that the Government knew the Japanese were going to attack. They could of prevented it, or at least kept damages to a minimum. But they let it happen, they knew that to boost the economy, the American public had to get pissed off at something and go to war.

9/11 was our generations Pearl Harbor. Either the Government planned the attacks, or allowed them to happen to get the public to start the War Machine. War is business, and it's a very lucrative one at that. Which, is sad.

[carrrnuttt]

Originally Posted by bnaylor3400

He doesn't need to. It would only be an exercise in futility. I've wasted enough of his time. He takes matters like this very seriously and does not think it is funny or accurate. Plus none of us are qualified to make any assessment. The evidence of the debris from an American Airlines 757 at the Pentagon crash site is clear and compelling. In the end you will only believe what you want to believe.

Yep, it is a vast right wing conspiracy.

Originally Posted by carrrnuttt

Ah whatever. None of you will even bother thinking about it. One even openly admits to forming an opinion prior to viewing the material being discussed. I hope I am wrong about that last part.

Guess not.

What are you doing in here? To call people out when you haven't even seen the material?

I have ignored every other video out there. Refused to even see Michael Moore's trash.

But this vid was linked to me by a member I trust that has never gone in the Political forums and whom I have never discussed politics with, just cars. So he had no agenda other than to show me the vid, which made him think.

So please, if you're not going to bother, stay out of the thread.

[03cavPA]

I have a feeling there is a kernel of truth in some conspiracy theories, but a lot of them are quite far-fetched.

I also think it is quite possible for our government to have some involvement in the 9/11 disasters. Our government manipulates foreign governments, people, and policies to suit its own needs every day. It's not much of a stretch to think it does the same thing to its own citizens if it can accomplish its goals.

Are we just pawns? Don't know, but it certailnly feels that way. Most Americans are too busy going about their daily lives to get too caught up in the dealings of conspiracy theories. The government knows this and uses numerous diversions to take the populace's mind off what's really going on.

Do I think our own gov't. took out the twin towers and the Pentagon? Well, they are more than capable of pulling it off, that's for sure.

I'm not trying to bash this country; I'm a vet, and I'm not ashamed to say that I think it's still an honor to serve one's country. I also think that I have the right to criticize it if I don't like what's going on. These types of discussions are good to have, as long as we can keep from dumping on those we don't agree with.