Total newbie needs direction for info

[daveleau]

Hi everybody!

I have been a 196* Camaro lover since I was in high school. My wallet won't let me get one, though, as they seem to be double the price I can spend. Luckily for me, it appears that the equally interesting 68 Firebird is in my price range ($8-10k for a decently restored car). But, I am a newbie, and need a fair amount of help, if you don't mind. Here are some of the things I know I don't know (and these will surely lead to much more I don't know):

(looking for a 68 Firebird w/o matching numbers, updated technologically (brakes, steering, stereo) and with a 400ci engine (not THE 400 version) for daily driving (not racing, but I want it to be fast))

what engines should I stay away from?

what are the benefits of a 400 sb versus a 400 bb?

what are the best automatic transmissions?

what are the best manual transmissions?

what things are specific to the 196* Firebirds that I need to look at when buying (problem areas)?

what are keys to noticing if a car has been ragged out?

other than ebay, where are good places to look for used classic cars?

are the bars under the rear axle (seen here: http://www.extreme-z.com/appearance/...bird.sized.jpg) frame connectors for the unibody frame?

Thank you for any help. I know how troublesome newbies can be, so if there's a reputable site that can can get me started, please feel free to point me there instead.

Dave

[ViperJ]

Well I have no clue to first gens but here is a site that might get you started www.musclecarclub.com

[76455Firebird]

I have been a 196* Camaro lover since I was in high school. My wallet won't let me get one, though, as they seem to be double the price I can spend. Luckily for me, it appears that the equally interesting 68 Firebird is in my price range ($8-10k for a decently restored car). But, I am a newbie, and need a fair amount of help, if you don't mind. Here are some of the things I know I don't know (and these will surely lead to much more I don't know):

(looking for a 68 Firebird w/o matching numbers, updated technologically (brakes, steering, stereo) and with a 400ci engine (not THE 400 version) for daily driving (not racing, but I want it to be fast))

what engines should I stay away from?
There were multiple engines that came in these cars an inline 6, 350, 350 H.O., 400, 400 H.O., 400 Ram air, they are all good motors, if you find a car with a 400 it will probably be rather expensive. The 350 is a good motor and there are many of them out there they can make good power (check poppularhotrodding.com I believe they did a build up of one).

what are the benefits of a 400 sb versus a 400 bb? While chevrolet has big blocks and small blocks, pontiac doesn't, the 350/400/455 all have the same external dimension (which is what defines "big block" and "small block").

what are the best automatic transmissions? My favorite automatic trans has to be the TH400, very stout stock and with a shift kit and some attention it can hold a lot of power. TH700R-4 is also a good trans if you're looking for overdrive or 4L60-E pending budget etc.

what are the best manual transmissions? The 68's origionally only came with a 3-speed, but if you're talking aftermarket, the muncie rock crusher is a good transmission (4-speed).

what things are specific to the 196* Firebirds that I need to look at when buying (problem areas)? Look for rust! (Base of rear window, Floor pans, Trunk) are all good areas to check.

what are keys to noticing if a car has been ragged out? Use your senses, if you smell something funny, hear something wierd, or see something that doesn't look right go with it, check things out. You can always come back later.

other than ebay, where are good places to look for used classic cars? Check your local newspapers, any car publications, drive around (many can be found this way).

are the bars under the rear axle (seen here: http://www.extreme-z.com/appearance/...bird.sized.jpg) frame connectors for the unibody frame? Those are traction bars. Their purpose is to help prevent the rear end from jumping around on a launch.

Thank you for any help. I know how troublesome newbies can be, so if there's a reputable site that can can get me started, please feel free to point me there instead.

Dave

Don't worry about it, that's what these forums are for. Check out www.yearone.com, www.classicindustries.com, www.performanceyears.com, ames performance engineering (not sure of website adress). Post over in the pontiac muscle car section as well and speak with MrPbody as he knows alot about all gens of firebirds

[daveleau]

Thanks, guys.

What does the gear ratio setup do for me? I have heard some mention thier 9.5/1 and 9.75/1 ratios, and a car I looked at today had a 10.5/1 ratio. Which is better?

[Rmbodie]

you got to be talking about compression ratio with these numbers . At 10.0/1 you have to run 93 octane fuel or higher . gear ratios would be in the 2.83 to 4.11 numbers . Rob

[daveleau]

Thanks. At lower ratios 9/1 or 8/1, do you run lower octanes or is it higher ratios like 11/1 or 12/1?

[daveleau]

Well, Google answered that one for me... Thanks!

Most automotive enthusiasts are familiar with the concept of compression ratio. We know that in general a high compression ratio is good for performance and efficiency, but that it can also lead to "knocking" or "detonation". Therefore high compression ratios are usually associated with the requirement for high octane fuel and careful engine management. But there is more to it than that

[Rmbodie]

good deal , I google most of my questions too . My 2K T/A has a 10.1/1 compreesion ratio and requires 93 octane . These older car require alot of daily tinkering to keep them running right . Are you sure you want to get into that and learn or goof up the hard way ? On my other auto , I have to mess with something every couple hundred miles or so . Rob

[daveleau]

What sort of tinkering? I will have time to work on them, but I am looking for something with a recently rebuilt engine. Will this still require a lot of tinkering? It is going to be a daily driver, not ragged out or raced. I'll probably put 4-5k miles on it a year. Is there a setup that would be less problematic/ require less tinkering? I love the style of the FB and Camaro from the late 60s.

Thanks!
Dave

[97cavalier]

find one with a ls1 in it!!

[Fuzzy_C]

Originally Posted by 97cavalier

find one with a ls1 in it!!

lol, 1st gen firebird with an ls1, i'd pay just to see that

[Rmbodie]

Tinkering , the older cars ,even with a newly rebuilt engine , will be carbuarated . Temp and rain and altitude effect them subtlely . You can't just get in and take off . My current project . I have to let in run a couple of minutes to warm the engine , then cut it off and let it rise to the carb before it will idle correctly on colder days . It is tuned for maximum performance when it is warm , NOT when cold . My ignition timing and the carb jetting are too advanced and rich for cold engine condition . Plus my intake does not have heat riser passages to warm it like stock ones do ,keeping the incoming air cooler for more power (grunt-grunt-grunt).
Sorry , got side tracked . Older cars are great TOYS , simple to work on ,and are fun to rip tires on . But thats what has to be done , the work on part that is. Someone has to play with the toys . Rob

[MrPbody]

A true "400" car is quite valuable, as others have mentioned. In truth, ANY Firebird can use the 400. I can sum up the benefits of the Pontiac 400 over the SBC 400 in one word: TORQUE! At similar levels of "tune", in a street car, a 400 Pontiac will run away from a 400 SB (I can hear all the oohs and ahs now...). The SB will give a slight weight advantage, if you're intended use is hard cornering.
The biggest disadvantage of running a Chevy engine is the reaction you will get from Pontiac guys. Invariably, you will be asked "why?". Your answer will be something about making it run. Prepare for an onslaught of challenges from guys running Pontiacs. Also, be prepared to learn the hard way, why GTO did NOT earn a reputation for losing...

'68s were available with the Muncie M-20 and M-21 4-speeds. I have a '68 350"HO" car that came with M-21 (close ratio). The "Dearborn" (Ford) 3-speed was the "base" transmission, with ST300 (2-speed), TH400 (M40 in Pontiacland) and the two Muncies as options. "Rock crusher" is a nickname originally applied to M-37, only installed in about 500 '67 Corvette "ZL-1" cars. It can be distinguished from other Muncies by the 1 1/4" input shaft (versus 1 1/16 for all the others). No Pontiac came with it. After time has marched on, anyone with any Muncie, has adopted the nickname. M-37 was available "over the counter" for racers. VERY rare. The nickname extends from the noisy 1st gear ("spur cut" instead of "helical cut").

With iron heads, 9.5:1 is considered the practical limit for 93 octane fuel. The later cars have both aluminum heads AND electronic engine management, which allows them to run the higher compression aluminum needs to make the same level of power an iron head makes (all other factors being equal, an iron head will make more power, as aluminum "soaks" too much of the heat out of the combustion process).

Once a carb'd car is properly setup, there's no "tinkering". There may be certain "compromises" that may need to be made, between warm and cold weather driving. With today's electric chokes and the level Q-Jets are tuned to, they can rival an injected car for drivability and efficiency. But yes, they DO take more work to get them "right".

To learn about the Pontiac engine, first get Jim Hand's book "How to Build Max-performance Pontiac V8s", by SA Designs. This is a current and accurate study of the old Poncho, as it is used today. It can dispel any myths you're wondering about.

I doubt you'll find an example of a 1st gen Firebird at the level of completion and performance you're looking for, for under $20K. I know I've been offered a sinful amount for my '69 400 car, and it's in a basket... Good luck, though!

Jim

[daveleau]

Thanks. I've foudn a couple of 68s with 400s, but they were not original, had recently been rebuilt and the features on the car were not original. I'm looking for decent speed, style and not an original restoration (lower the price, it seems).

I do have some car knowledge, but this is a completely different realm. My knowledge is not in performance, but in troubleshooting problems. I'll grab that book and read up. If the tinkering does not mean having to work on it each weekend to keep it running, then I think I can handle it. I like to tinker, and just haven't had an apportunity to tinker in this fashion. My last ride was an Jeep, and I had it set up for off-road fun. But, I want style, as the 1st gen FBs (and Camaros) are my all-time-fav.

Thanks!
Dave