Took TB off - Checked Sensors - Partial Results

[DOCTORBILL]

It stopped raining for a while, so I went out and did a few things on
my '93 Geo Metro 1.0 L. 5 spd.

I "Tee'd" into the MAP Sensor vacuum hose and ran the engine.

Here is what I got:
18 lbs at high RPM / 20 lbs Idle………Is this OK?
Engine died after 10 - 15 seconds w/o pedal pumping.

Which is, basically, what my problem is!
There is no CEL code - the light is out while running.

I was alone, so couldn't get the cylinder pressure - my gauge is
a push-on type - I need a partner - nobody here today!

I took the top half of the Throttle Body apart.
The throttle Body Top is FILTHY! Black oily with deposits on the
sides. Made my hands turn Jet Black!

First I took the top off of the Fuel Pressure Regulator to change the
FP Diaphragm. Unfortunately, the screws did not cooperate!
Two broke off like butter! I wasn't reefing on them either!

AND - I could not get the two screws holding the Fuel Injector to
come loose. Nearly boogered up those screw heads….

The FPR Diaphragm did not look bad, but I purchased a replacement
which I'll encorporate into this bugger-all creature!



Then I took off the Throttle Position Sensor and read the Ohms off of the leads as I turned the rotor head.....

That went as follows:

LG/B to LG/W……..0 to 6,000 ohms with no gaps in the readings

LG/Y to LG…………..7,000 ohms and at 10° turn went open circuit.

LG/B to LG/Y………zero ohms to open circuit at 10° turn.

LG/B to LG …………7,000 ohms constant.

I would guess that my TPS is good. No !?

I tested the Temperature Sensors for the Air and the Coolant.
Both read about 3,000 ohms at room temp and dropped to about
1,000 ohms in hot tap water. Good - no?

Here is the TB from the right side.



and from the left side.



The PCV valve was completely plugged up and I changed it for a new
one.

I also got a photo of what folks have been telling me is the Idle
Control Solenoid.



Am I correct? What is the canister that connects to the ICS ?

What is the can on the firewall behind it in the photo connected to
many metal tubes - the Brake system?

I have a TB top part I obtained in the Pull-n-Save which I can use.
However, I would like to remove and check the Injector. I may HAVE
to use that Injector if I can't get these screws out!

I cannot get the screws to come loose on the Injector either on my
own TB Top or the one from the wrecking Yard…!

Any suggestions on loosening these bugger-all screws!?

I am afraid THEY will break or the heads will deform (one is close to
that point already!). The FPR screws were quite soft!
Crappy metal screws used there! I'll replace them with good Stainless
Steel screws.....

Can a machine shop get the broken screws out easily?

Once I get it all back together, I hope maybe the engine will run
well again. So far, the only thing I found bad was the PCV valve.

Am I on the right track Blake?

DoctorBill

[carpenter_jai]

Hey doctorbill. I have no help to offer you, just my sympathy, I'm having trouble in the same part of my engine. A question about the PCV valve. Did the pointy side go down or up? I was doing too many things at once, and got it mixed up.

Jai

[unbe]

Here is what I got:
18 lbs at high RPM / 20 lbs Idle………Is this OK?

Doc,
A normal healthly engine should produce about 17-22 inches of mercury(in-Hg) with a fairly steady needle.That is for sea level,for every 1000 ft above 2000ft elevation it will be about 1 in-hg lower.That being said looks like your inital vacuum test results are ok,your chiltons probably has alot more vaccum tests you could try
Good Luck
Unbe

[DOCTORBILL]

Originally Posted by carpenter_jai

Hey doctorbill. I have no help to offer you, just my sympathy, I'm having trouble in the same part of my engine. A question about the PCV valve. Did the pointy side go down or up? I was doing too many things at once, and got it mixed up.

Jai

The PCV valve has a side with an "O-Ring" on it. Also THAT side has
more of a CONE SHAPED side and the hole has some pointy thing in it.
THAT side goes DOWN with the clamp over it.

The O-Ring seals to the flat base.
The end with the open hole in the tip goes up and the hose goes on it.

Mine was FRAM FV325. The old one was completely plugged up with
some black horse puckie.

Hope this helps!

I do EXACTLY the same thing - I get moving fast and don't pay attention to the details!
Like removing all my Spark Plug Wires from a V-8 engine w/o noting where they went!
Jesus! THAT was fun!

Ever have some shit kids switch your spark plug wires around at night
and you think your engine is destoying itself when you try to start it?

Anyway - I am so reluctant to start big jobs like this 'cause I know
something is going to screw up and what was supposed to be a small
job turns into a "Big Magilla" as my Dad used to say.

DoctorBill

[Crvett69]

if the screws don't want to come out try tapping them a few times with a brass hammer or a hammer and a brass drift, the aluminum tends to oxidize and lock them in. giving them a sharp rap will usually break them loose. if you end up needing any parts i have about 7 or 8 throttle bodies off various year cars

[DOCTORBILL]

I think I answered about the screws on another post - "Safe to rinse TBI head with Gasoline?". I dont think it would be cost-effective to pay a shop to extract the screws when you have another TBI top.

I AM WORRIED THAT THE JUNK YARD INJECTOR MAY BE NO GOOD.
YES, I WILL USE THE WRECKING YARD TB TOP.
BUT - IF THE INJECTOR REQUIRES FIXING, I STILL HAVE TO REMOVE IT!
I MAY TRY USING A SMALL SCREW EXTRACTOR MYSELF - HAVE A SET -
NEVER USED IT!

"What is the canister that connects to the ICS ?"
Well as you have noticed, oil fills the intake system. That canister is there to help filter out the crap that could foul the solenoid valve.

SOUNDS REASONABLE. HOW CAN I TEST THE IDLE CONTROL SOLENOID?

UNBE covered the vacuum readings... I'll look at the charts for the sensors...PCV valve...are they ever good? Make sure the hose to the PCV is not plugged with sludge.

I ACTUALLY WASHED IT OUT WITH REAL HOT TAP WATER & DRIED IT.

As for Tee'ing into the MAP sensor...
What I have to say is based on anal retention. I would not recommend that tee'ing into this circuit permanently. The MAP sensor needs to react quickly and adding additional hose and a gauge for driving purposes adds volume to the vacuum circuit, slowing the response.

THEN WHICH VACUUM HOSE DO YOU RECOMMEND? WHERE WOULD IT BE? I'D LIKE TO PUT IN A PERMANENT VACUUM GAUGE.

In recent years the MAP sensor is bolted directly to the intake manifold. It was if the designers realised that having the sensor remotely slowed the response time of the sensor. I know its only a METRO...I need help Doc!

WELL, I AM WINGING IT WITH WHAT I AM DOING.

I AM SURPRISED AT ALL THE CRAP COVING MY TB TOP HALF!
THE ENGINE IS ALSO DIRTY - DUE TO OIL LEAKING FROM THE DISTRIBUTOR CAP O-RING (WHICH I AM AFRAID TO ATTACK!

I PLAN TO HOOK A GAUGE INTO THE FUEL LINE AND RUN THE FUEL
PUMP DIRECTLY FROM A 12 v BATTERY TO SEE WHAT PRESSURE THE
SYSTEM WILL MAINTAIN.
THEN RUN IT REGULAR WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING TO SEE WHAT
THE PRESSURE IS WITH NORMAL FUEL FLOWING.

I LIVE IN A VERY DIRTY, DUSTY AREA! THIS IS WHEAT FARM COUNTRY
AND DUST IS ALWAYS IN THE AIR. WASHING ONE'S CAR IS A TOTALY
USELESS ENDEAVOR! THE NEXT DAY YOU'D NEVER KNOW IT WAS WASHED.

THE WEATHER IS DEGENERATING AGAIN! #@%$# @%$* !!!

DoctorBill

[Metro Mighty Mouse]

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

I AM SURPRISED AT ALL THE CRAP COVING MY TB TOP HALF!
THE ENGINE IS ALSO DIRTY - DUE TO OIL LEAKING FROM THE DISTRIBUTOR CAP O-RING (WHICH I AM AFRAID TO ATTACK!
DoctorBill

There are 2 seals in the distributor, one on the outside of the shaft, (easy to get to, easy to replace, available on ebay, never fails) and one that is internal on the rotor shaft (no part available, seriously hard to take the distributor completely apart, you have to use a punch to knock out a drift pin etc, most say buy a rebuilt distributor). I got annoyed with it puking oil on top of the tranny so I endeavored to make it stop. I forget the exact process I used but I think I ended up oiling the shaft and using a permatex type material to make a new seal as I put it back together or maybe I just forced it into the gap. The best news was it worked and hasn't leaked since.

Just thought you would like to know what it entailed

[DOCTORBILL]

It rained and blew all day w/o letup and is predicted to go on for a
week! So I washed the TB Top half off inside the house and am
smelling gasoline fumes as I write this....

I got my Impact driver out and oiled it up and gave the screws holding
the Injector Cover several damned hard wacks! I really had to
reef on it. I then Pushed down on it hard and grabbed the phillips
head with a monkey wrench (adjustable spanner to Canadians) and
turned it. Then....
I actually had to use some Sears Craftsman Nut Removers to finish
taking the Injector Cap screws out all the way as the Phillips head
began to get cut away by the Impact hammering....treated the screw
heads like a nut on a bolt.

Long story short - one screw broke off the other came out with
difficulty. The one that came out had some blue-green residue on the
threads. I'll bet whoever assembled this used a thread-lock... Why!?

Here is what is inside the upper TB Injector assembly:



I pulled out the Injector - had to use gas pliers - and photgraphed it
at several angles.



I also got some close-ups of the black top plug that is held down
with those damned screws.



Here is another top view with the problems screws.



Why would the manufacturers put a thread-lock on the screws?
They essentially made it unrepairable!

This is crazy! This Top Portion is essentially ruined. Lucky I have the
wrecking yard one to put back in. I hope the Injector in THAT ONE
is good...

I will leave the second TB Top Half Injector alone, wash it with
gasoline and carb cleaner, put the FPR diaphragm into it and put it all
back on my Metro - when it stops raining......

Then on with trying to figure out what is not working properly.

DoctorBill

[DOCTORBILL]

Originally Posted by Metro Mighty Mouse

There are 2 seals in the distributor, one on the outside of the shaft, (easy to get to, easy to replace, available on ebay, never fails) and one that is internal on the rotor shaft (no part available, seriously hard to take the distributor completely apart, you have to use a punch to knock out a drift pin etc, most say buy a rebuilt distributor). I got annoyed with it puking oil on top of the tranny so I endeavored to make it stop. I forget the exact process I used but I think I ended up oiling the shaft and using a permatex type material to make a new seal as I put it back together or maybe I just forced it into the gap. The best news was it worked and hasn't leaked since.

Just thought you would like to know what it entailed

Thanks for the description of replacement.

Which of the two O-Rings do you think caused the oil leak?

I suppose like all things Geo Metro, a rebuilt distributor costs more
than a replacement engine would cost.

Geo Metros are kind of like VW Rabbits for parts costs. One damned
good car, but parts were killing me!

That's why I decided to sell my old Rabbit back in the early 90's -
got tired of being 'held up' by the parts stores.

DoctorBill

[Metro Mighty Mouse]

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

Thanks for the description of replacement.

Which of the two O-Rings do you think caused the oil leak?

I suppose like all things Geo Metro, a rebuilt distributor costs more
than a replacement engine would cost.

Geo Metros are kind of like VW Rabbits for parts costs. One damned
good car, but parts were killing me!

That's why I decided to sell my old Rabbit back in the early 90's -
got tired of being 'held up' by the parts stores.

DoctorBill

so far it's been so reliable that parts cost hasn't been a big deal. Add in the money saved on fuel and it's even a better deal and the clincher for me is how fun it is to drive.

easy way to determine which seal it is - if it's leaking at the base of the distributor, your in luck, pull it out, replace the o-ring, lube it for ease of insertion, and you should be good to go.

If it is leaking through the interior of the distributor and coming out the little drain hole on the bottom of the distributor body, it's the bad one. After what I went through I would recommend pulling the rotor off, cleaning the interior up with a spray product, then using your finger to smear a sealant into the gap between the shaft and body and cross your fingers.

[DOCTORBILL]

Originally Posted by DieInterim

Bill, as I was implying earlier, the proper way to remove TB screws was to heat them first.
The factory used LOCTITE because they did not the engine to ingest the buggers.

Blake

That's funny - I complain about my Chemistry Students not listening to
what I tell them..... Ha!

In actual fact, I did not believe that the heat could travel down the screw
w/o being dissipated by the cap they were holding on to the
Aluminum TB upper half. I did not know what the Injector Top Cap
was made of.

SO......since the unit in the photos is from my TB, I will have a go at
removing the studs left in the aluminum top half. I can heat the
leftover stud from the Injector cover (see first and last photo) directly
and then try to grasp it with pliers to remove it. The other broken off
studs have to be drilled and pulled with a small stud remover. I can
heat them by inserting a nail or steel rod into the drilled out hole just
before using the stud remover.

Locktite is probably just a form of 'Instant Glue' with solid additives.
I will try to find out what solvent cuts into it and use that also.
Maybe a web site tells one what to use to dissolve it.....Anyone know of such a web site?

Instant glue dissolves in Acetone (I know this from Model Airplanes).

Now I don't want to use LockTite when I reassemble this!
I don't want the SAME problem later - but do you really think the
screws might come out and go down the throttle Body throat!?

This is a challenge!

Anyone reading this should take my errors into consideration before
trying to get into the FPR cover and the Injector Cover.

If anyone has accomplished either or both, please let us know what
you did and what not to do...!

DoctorBill

PS - came back later via "Edit" to add what I found on "Superglue"
debonders. (Cyanoacrylate depolymerizers).

http://www.hobbylinc.com/prods/rgd.htm
http://store.yahoo.com/tmt/sup768cleans.html
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...vent&hl=en</a>

Apparently 95% Nitromethane in Toluene will dissolve instant glues
fairly well. Wouldn't like to mess with NitroMethane, however....

[leonbentz]

Hmmmmm. I don't know. I pulled my Throttle body apart with no troubles at all. Apparently it was never torn apart. I think Locktite was used by others who have torn into them and they should be kicked repreatedly in the BALLS!! You don't use Locktite on the engine parts you friggin morons!! END OF STORY! You may have to take them apart again. And it's not nice to make one break screws off and make them drill them out. If you use the proper washers, and torque settings, they won't be ingested into the combustion chamber. I did, however buy a used intake manifold/ throttle body assembly and ended up with a couple broken screws. So, I have a used throttle body assembly for a '95 Metro that is useless now. I do have good parts for those who are interested.

Leon

[DOCTORBILL]

Originally Posted by leonbentz

Hmmmmm. I don't know. I pulled my Throttle body apart with no troubles at all. Apparently it was never torn apart. I think Locktite was used by others who have torn into them and they should be kicked repreatedly in the BALLS!! You don't use Locktite on the engine parts you friggin morons!! END OF STORY! You may have to take them apart again. And it's not nice to make one break screws off and make them drill them out. If you use the proper washers, and torque settings, they won't be ingested into the combustion chamber. I did, however buy a used intake manifold/ throttle body assembly and ended up with a couple broken screws. So, I have a used throttle body assembly for a '95 Metro that is useless now. I do have good parts for those who are interested.

Leon

I certainly do agree with you!

If you use the appropriate type of lock washers (looks like a star with
twisted rays that bite into the metal), the screw will not back out.

Or maybe use a fuel resistant glue "CAP" on the screw - don't put glue
way down in the threads where no one can get at it to release it!

Sometimes I wonder how the Human Race got this far.... with all the
morons screwing things up. If it weren't for the few geniuses we
would all be grazing on grass in the meadows.

Now me!? I have never made any mistakes. I always do the right
thing. That's why I am here trying to repair a $900 car to save a
few bucks. I've done soooo well in life!

That's me below, pointing to the bridge in London that I bought.

DoctorBill

[theragtopguy]

I just wanted to thank you DR Bill for this thread. I have learned a great deal about the Metro throttle body from this thread. I am intending to tear mine down also because I have this high idle problem in Park or Neutral and have done about everything else to try and fix it. I really appreciate your pics and such.

I'll bet you are a great Cehmistry teacher also, wish I would've had you a few years back when I took Chem I and II!

It's also nice to see there's someone older than me on this board! LOL

[DOCTORBILL]

Originally Posted by theragtopguy

I just wanted to thank you DR Bill for this thread. I have learned a great deal about the Metro throttle body from this thread. I am intending to tear mine down also because I have this high idle problem in Park or Neutral and have done about everything else to try and fix it. I really appreciate your pics and such.

I'll bet you are a great Cehmistry teacher also, wish I would've had you a few years back when I took Chem I and II!

It's also nice to see there's someone older than me on this board! LOL

I am very much a visual person. I always watched anyone fixing anything
and learned how to do it that way. I love the DIY, PBS and DISC
channel shows like "This Old House" and Norm Abramson's wood
working show that spun off of "This Old House."

Go to this link - a web site for rating one's teachers.

http://ratemyprofessors.com/SelectTeacher.jsp?sid=2865

I am 63 this February. I never imagined it. Makes me think of Simon
and Garfunkel's "Old Shoes" song - '....how terribly strange to be senventy.."
Things are not working well any more. I wonder when or if my ass
(or other things) will just fall off one day?
Right there on the floor....

BTW....
I got in trouble on a NetScape "news group" for making a strong
political statement in my 'signature' file.....just thought I'd mention it.


DoctorBill Frankart