Emergency!! Please Help! Im Begging!

[Taz480]

Please read my other post.
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...0&goto=3652990

Everything seemed fixed. Looked like the cam sensor. Now my wife tried to go to work. No start. When key turned to ON, there id power momentarily to the coil pack then goes away. Originally primary resistance was .7-.8 ohms. Sposed to be .52-.62. I fugured pretty close. Now they appear to all be over 1 ohm like 1.1. If the coil pack is bad, will it tell the computer to quit sending power to coil pack????
Everything else is new, coolant temp sens, crank sens, cam sens. Im sorry, I am saying emergency cuz we have spent every dime on kids' xmas presaents cuz it WAS fixed. We got another $100 coming from my wifes mom to help with the bills. But shes sposed to drive 70 miles to get it. Now we're stuck again. Please, please help! My wife CANNOT miss anymore work. Not only is she losing money, she may get fired. I dont know where else to go or to do!!! Please??????????????

[Taz480]

I must have read the coil pack primary resistance wrong or sumthin cuz of the angle I was testing at. I pulled it off to test again and all 3 primary(coil side of plug connector pins) to the B+ pin are still around .7 ohms so I guess it is still good. Or is .7 ohms too high?? Something is not letting the coil pack produce spark. When I turn the key on, the(what I assume is) ASD relay clicks and there is a noise like a light growl and there is power to the B+ on the coil pack for a couple seconds then the relay clicks again and the power to the B+ and the growl go away. During this, you can also hear(if youre inside) the fuel pump cycle on and then off. Fuel is still ruled out as far as I can tell. While cranking, fuel shoots strong out of the the schrader valve. Whats wierd tho, if it is the ASD relay killing the coil pack(Like its sposed to) then wouldnt it also be killing power to the fuel pump???? Sposed to. Which would suggest bad coil pack. But why would the resistance shoe good??? Perhaps the computer is killing the signal to the coil pack??? I don't even know how those signals are routed. My understanding is that the power for all these components, fuel pump, coil pack, injectors goes thru the relay. Does the relay just close/open a signal to the computer and then the signal goes thru the computer to each component??? Also with the key ON, I have 8.5 volts at the crank and cam sensors.My understanding is that the only 2 sensors that wu=ill trip the ASD relay are those 2. Man Im lost! Im leaning towards the coil pack or computer. But as far as I can tell the coil pack is good. I may(MIGHT) have another vehicle coming out here so we can at least be mobile. But I have got to get this figured out. I am trying so hard. Now Im worried we may have to return the kids's presents. If anyone can help at all, please help. ANY help is appreciated. There has to be something Im missing. The motor is basically not starting cuz no spark. That reason could be, bad coil pack, or ASD relay not letting it, or computer not lettimg the ASD let it. I dont know. Im really good atr figuring this stuff out but I am so frustrated and worried and nearing the dead end. My mother just called, at least a second vehicle is on its way. Well, Im gonna start calling wreckn yards for a computer. Thank you everyone for ANY help!!!!!!

[1thunder]

hey man taz you cant quit now man you're surprizing me your on the right track and all you need is a little explanation on how this works so the cam and crank sensors get a 9v feed these are the only 2 sensors with 9v then they get interupted by the tone wheels at cam and crank this tells the pcm to ground the asd relay wich will give 12v to pump injectors and coil so if its not cranking or no signal of cranking going to pcm it wont ground the relay then if it grounds the pcm pulses the ground to the injectors and dwells the 3 remaining wires at the coil eaven if the coil was off the pcm would still try to work it make sure that you dont have a corroded 12v wire to or from the asd {supply or output} as on an open circuit or low load you will se 12v but under load may not be and pay particular attention to wiring at cam sensor area for possible intermittent shorts and crank also and if you cycle your key on off 3 times in 5 seconds does the check eng lamp come on or flash at this time when it wont start im standing by

[Taz480]

OK, I actually started pulling the batt loose so i can inspect all the wires near the SBEC. Dark now.(no garage)
As for the ASD relay, if its the one i think it is, I even pulled it loose, tried a different, good relay, and I also jumpered 87 and 30 wile trying to start. But if the relay wont let power to everything, why would the fuel pressure still be there when cranking? Also I got code 33 and 42. 42 is no asd relay voltagesense at controller or auto shutdown relay control circuit. 33 isA?C clutch relay circuit. I think I got those codes from me messing with the relays tho. Is it possible for the SBEC to kill the coil but not everything else after the asd relay?? Is .7 ohms too high for the primary side of coil pack???

[1thunder]

yes it is possible for pcm to kill the spark and not the fuel but opens or shorts can cause this also now does the check engine lamp come on and if you turned the key on with the asd disconnected it will code also does the fuel pump keep pumping while cranking this is important for determining a lost in cam or crank signal or can you monitor the 12v green and red tracer wire with a test lamp to see if it lights brightly or flickers again this will help determining wiring or sensor loss

[Taz480]

Originally Posted by 1thunder

yes it is possible for pcm to kill the spark and not the fuel but opens or shorts can cause this also now does the check engine lamp come on and if you turned the key on with the asd disconnected it will code also does the fuel pump keep pumping while cranking this is important for determining a lost in cam or crank signal or can you monitor the 12v green and red tracer wire with a test lamp to see if it lights brightly or flickers again this will help determining wiring or sensor loss

the check engine lt does not stay on. I will try turning key w/ asd unplugged. I gotta get my drop light out. Still raining too. We didnt rtry continuing cranking while watching fuel shoot out schrader valve, too messy. But i will anyway to see. So that will tell me if cam and crank sgnls are good??? Where is the green and red tracer wire??

[Taz480]

No new ASD codes after trying key on with ASD unplugged. I do however now have a 24 code, TPS voltage low or high. But I think earlier I may have tried starting without the TPS plugged in. I think the 3 codes im getting are from me experimenting and messing with relays, jumping and testing. You're right, I just need a good understanding of the whole system and I thank you sooooo much for ur help. Havent tried cranking and seeing if fuel pump keeps shooting fuel. My helper ran to the PO Box. Will in a few.

[1thunder]

the wire is at the coil 4 way connector check there with test lamp before checking fuel system as this should tell you the same if the asd shuts down as your cranking but make sure the pump continues to pump also as you may have a different problem from the first one you could have repaired the sensor fault and now the pump let go maybe i'm just trying to save you from unecesary purchases

[Taz480]

OK, now I know which wire ur talkin about.The B+ on the coil pack plug. I actually checked it earlier. It will light solid at key on and go out a couple seconds later like I described earlier with the relay clicks and growl sound and u can hear the fuel pumpcycle for the same amount of time. The test light just comes on for a few and gone, regardless of cranking or not. This is the only activity for that circuit. And I have to turn key to OFF to reset it. As I said, I can also hear the relay right next to me during all this clickin on and then off(close, then open). Basically, like lets say the van was new. If you turn the key to ON but not start, you usually hear a shhzhzhzhzh sound for about 1 1/2 seconds. Then it stops but if you just turn right to start, u usually won't har that cuz u dont give it time. But in this case, you hear everything cycle sorta speak and should be able to continue to the start position to start the van but cant.
Now for the fuel, ya we didnt test it long enough cuz it was blowin fuel everywhere. This time I had her continue to crank. Fuel gives a good big spurt, then stops(still cranking). Also, just like the test light, you have to go back to ign. OFF to do it again, however it does it everytime so I think fuel pump is still good. Its definately looking more like that dam relay, huh??? or something(like SBEC[eeeek]) not letting the relay to stay closed. Any more thoughts?? Im standing by. THANK YOU!!!

[Taz480]

PS- Just curious where you got all ur caravan/voyager knowledge and experience. You sure sound like you know what the hell ur talkin about. You are definately my beacon in the storm right now. I know it's probably late in Torronto. You don't know how much I appreciate this.

[1thunder]

now like i said if the pcm doesnt see a engine revolution from cam or crank sensor it will not keep the relay grounded to start engine now if you clear the codes and attemp to start engine 6-7 times and recheck for codes do you get any oh and check the ground at the left frame rail just under the air cleaner housing under the main wiring harness and check the harness there also as it rubs on the frame rail and could short the harness all you need is 1 wire to short and this is it maybe lift harness while someone cranks it over move harness at cam and crank sensors also while cranking standing by i want the kids to have a nice christmas

[Taz480]

Originally Posted by 1thunder

now like i said if the pcm doesnt see a engine revolution from cam or crank sensor it will not keep the relay grounded to start engine now if you clear the codes and attemp to start engine 6-7 times and recheck for codes do you get any oh and check the ground at the left frame rail just under the air cleaner housing under the main wiring harness and check the harness there also as it rubs on the frame rail and could short the harness all you need is 1 wire to short and this is it maybe lift harness while someone cranks it over move harness at cam and crank sensors also while cranking standing by i want the kids to have a nice christmas

As you know, both crank and cam sensors are new, but I know how easy it is for even new ones to fail. Ive moved the cam and crank sensors harness areas every way but yanking them out. Also, I have tried it by bypassing the relay and jumping the common(30) and output(87) wires while cranking. Wouldn't this over ride the computer deenerdizing the relay and still allow the pump, injectors, coil to operate and at least try to start?? Starting to sound more and more like shorts or load failure due to such, huh?? Or computer. I will check the ground cable under air cleaner and all wires in same area. I actually started to earlier but its all i can do to stay outside long enough. Its dark and pouring outside. Would you rather resume this tomorrow?? We now have my parents Blazer for temporary transportation so my wife can go to work tomorrow. Im sure its late there. Do you work tomorrow? What time will you be available?? Its time for dinner with the family. I will eat while waiting for ur next reply.
One last thing.....How do I reset(erase codes)??? I thot it was just pull battery for like 30 seconds. My book doesn't say. OK supper time. I'll still keep refreshing.

[1thunder]

you can disconnect battery for 15 minutes or pcm connector and yes i work all day tomorrow and i am commited to after work work for tomorrow and possibly thursday but i will check in when i can later and good luck i know you can figure it out and no if you bypass the relay it will not eaven try to pulse the injectors or the coil as the pcm does not get a feedback from asd so it knows there is a problem and wont attempt to start so retry harness movement tomorow with everything on

[Taz480]

Originally Posted by 1thunder

you can disconnect battery for 15 minutes or pcm connector and yes i work all day tomorrow and i am commited to after work work for tomorrow and possibly thursday but i will check in when i can later and good luck i know you can figure it out and no if you bypass the relay it will not eaven try to pulse the injectors or the coil as the pcm does not get a feedback from asd so it knows there is a problem and wont attempt to start so retry harness movement tomorow with everything on

Oh ya, I forgot. I also tried another known good relay. I think we're still even more so looking more towards wire integrety or computer itself. Thank you very much. I may even go out and look after dinner. I dunno. Pretty wet and late. I'll probably pull the battery tonight and pull the batt. plate. Already started anyway. That way I know the codes will be reset by morning. Thanx again. Hopefully Ill get it before you return. Fingers crossed. LOL!

[Taz480]

OK, I pulled the battery, batt. tray and air cleaner assembly. I had noticed before that one of the plugs had a lil corrosion from battery acid. I found out now how bad. The water tight plug literally crumbled in my hand. I freed all the wires I could get my hands on from all convoluted flex, electrical tape and eroded heat wrap. I now have a spaghetti mess. Ya the ground you mentioned is a lil rusty. Could probably use a new eyelet and cleaned contact area. Anyway, I cut out the bad plug one wire at a time from both sides and spliced each one with bell connectors for now. I disconnected the crank sensor and some other sensor from the back of the motor and managed to get the whole harness up where I could work on it. I began tracing and learning a lil more about the wiring configuration. I learned that the orange(9volts) wire and the gray wire from the cam and crank sensors both come up and splice together into one wire into the computer. Not sure about the black wire. I need to know which of the three wires, orng, gray w/blck stripe, or blck w/ wht stripe, is the engine revolution signal back to the computer. If it is the gray(wouldn't be the orange, anyway.....it's power) then the computer isn't looking for a loss of signal because the two sensors are wired parallel in that respect. They would have to be wired in series or seperately. Maybe it's the black wire that sends the signal. I still don't know what to look for on thse wires to test them or how to test them off the vehicle. Well, I still need to inspect some of the wires. But I didn't see anything standing out in the way of cut, scraped, or shorted otherwise. I need to check the coil wires of the ASD relay(the actual "relay coil" wires, 85 and 86). If need be, I will find out where all three of the sensor wires and relay wires go and maybe run new wires for testing purposes just to bypass the vehicle harness. If nothing at that point, then I will start searching for a used SBEC in a wrecking yard somewhere. But it has to be the same year and engine combo, right?? I will continue wire inspection in the morning.

Originally Posted by 1thunder

now if you clear the codes and attemp to start engine 6-7 times and recheck for codes do you get any

Oh ya, I tried to start it after splicing the wires from the bad plug. No go. Since the battery had been out, the codes were cleared. I tried to start 6 or 7 times to get a code. Nothing. Just 12 and 55, normal. Anyway, we will see what I find on the wires in the morning. If need be, I'll rewire that whole ignition circuit just to test it and see if it is the SBEC. Sort of bench it.