7 °F - '93 Metro running bad of a sudden!

[DOCTORBILL]

Do '93 Geo Metro's not do well in cold weather?
I have a 3 cyl, 1 liter metro. Throttle Body.
158,000 miles. Been running like a top!

I live in the "Palouse" - open wheat country about 30
miles south of Spokane, WA.
It got down to 7 deg F (~14 deg C) this morning.
My 5 spd was like rubber glue was in it.

I started it and the "Check Engine" light came on.
Never was on until this morning! Warmed engine for
20 minutes before leaving.

Now the engine barely idles, misses like crazy.

I drove it about 80 miles this morning (and it has
lost power). Had to downshift to 3rd going up moderate
hills. Normally does them in 4th (with a passenger)or
5th (if I'm alone).

Some ideas I had - what do you knowledgable folk think?

Stuck choke?
Some temperature sensor keeping something closed down?
PVC Valve? Haven't changed it since buying it at 143,000 miles.

If the "Check Engine" light comes on - does it do that for
almost ANYTHING, or just specific problems?

Help folks!

DoctorBill

[DieInterim]

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

Do '93 Geo Metro's not do well in cold weather?
I have a 3 cyl, 1 liter metro. Throttle Body.
158,000 miles. Been running like a top!

I live in the "Palouse" - open wheat country about 30
miles south of Spokane, WA.
It got down to 7 deg F (~14 deg C) this morning.
My 5 spd was like rubber glue was in it.

I started it and the "Check Engine" light came on.
Never was on until this morning! Warmed engine for
20 minutes before leaving.

Now the engine barely idles, misses like crazy.

I drove it about 80 miles this morning (and it has
lost power). Had to downshift to 3rd going up moderate
hills. Normally does them in 4th (with a passenger)or
5th (if I'm alone).

Some ideas I had - what do you knowledgable folk think?

Stuck choke?
Some temperature sensor keeping something closed down?
PVC Valve? Haven't changed it since buying it at 143,000 miles.

If the "Check Engine" light comes on - does it do that for
almost ANYTHING, or just specific problems?

Help folks!

DoctorBill

You better retrieve the engine code first. Key off, insert fuse into service slot in the fuse box, turn on key and note the flashes. Long flash is the first digit, quick flashes the second digit.
(2long + 3quick = 23).

[DOCTORBILL]

Originally Posted by DieInterim

You better retrieve the engine code first. Key off, insert fuse into service slot in the fuse box, turn on key and note the flashes. Long flash is the first digit, quick flashes the second digit.
(2long + 3quick = 23).

Holy Mackeral!

I Thought I had to buy a "Code Reader" !!

By flashes, you mean the dashboard lights - or what?

Does it repeat over and over?

Where can I find out what the code means?
The Chilton Manual has some OBD-I diagnostic trouble codes on
page 4-15. Do you have the Chilton Manual?
Are those them?

12 to 13 codes - that's all...

Thanks - you have been a big help!

DoctorBill

[DieInterim]

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

Holy Mackeral!

I Thought I had to buy a "Code Reader" !!

By flashes, you mean the dashboard lights - or what?

Does it repeat over and over?

Where can I find out what the code means?
The Chilton Manual has some OBD-I diagnostic trouble codes on
page 4-15. Do you have the Chilton Manual?
Are those them?

12 to 13 codes - that's all...

Thanks - you have been a big help!

DoctorBill

The check engine light will be the one flashing.

93 - 95

13 Oxygen Sensor circuit. Signal voltage does not change.
14 Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor circuit High Voltage Input.
Low temperature indicated.
15 Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor circuit Low Voltage Input.
High temperature indicated.
21 Throttle Position Sensor circuit High Voltage Input.
22 Throttle Position Sensor circuit Low Voltage Input.
23 Intake Air temperature Sensor circuit - High Voltage Input. Low
temperature indicated.
24 Vehicle Speed Sensor circuit.
25 Intake Air temperature Sensor circuit - Low Voltage Input. High
temperature indicated.
31 MAP Sensor circuit Low Voltage Input - Low manifold pressure.
32 MAP Sensor circuit High Voltage Input - High manifold pressure.
41 Ignition Signal circuit.
42 Crankshaft Position Sensor circuit - No Signal for 2 seconds.
46 Idle Speed Control Motor circuit.
51 EGR circuit.

[DOCTORBILL]

Originally Posted by DieInterim

The check engine light will be the one flashing.
93 - 95
13 Oxygen Sensor circuit. Signal voltage does not change.

I finally was able to insert the fuse in the "Diagnostic" slot.

One long three short - 13 Oxygen Sensor.

I'd like to replace it myself, but today was colder than a Witch's
boobs on Halloween! 6 °F or -14.4 °C to you Canadians.

Anyway - would a bad Oxygen Sensor make my car run sooooooo
bad? It hardly will idle. No power.

What does the "Check Engine" light do if several things go bad?
Can it show more than one code?

Why does everything seem to go bad in bad weather when it is
nearly impossible to work on the car?

I guess I will have Martin's Auto out on Trent replace the Oxygen
Sensor - if the weather was decent, I'd do it myself!

A thought - what if the wire came loose? It is underneath the
engine, is it not?

HEY! WAIT A MINUTE.... I've been backing up thru deep snow and
because the '93 is so low, I bet I could have ripped the connection
to the Oxygen Sensor loose! Yes????

Tomorrow I will park it on my cement pad, jack it up, and have a
look. Where would I find the OS under the car?

DoctorBill EDITED 5:19 pm 1 HOUR 6 MINUTES LATER....

[DieInterim]

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

I finally was able to insert the fuse in the "Diagnostic" slot.

One long three short - 13 Oxygen Sensor.

I'd like to replace it myself, but today was colder than a Witch's
boobs on Halloween! 6 °F or -14.4 °C to you Canadians.

Anyway - would a bad Oxygen Sensor make my car run sooooooo
bad? It hardly will idle. No power.

What does the "Check Engine" light do if several things go bad?
Can it show more than one code?

Why does everything seem to go bad in bad weather when it is
nearly impossible to work on the car?

I guess I will have Martin's Auto out on Trent replace the Oxygen
Sensor - if the weather was decent, I'd do it myself!

A thought - what if the wire came loose? It is underneath the
engine, is it not?

HEY! WAIT A MINUTE.... I've been backing up thru deep snow and
because the '93 is so low, I bet I could have ripped the connection
to the Oxygen Sensor loose! Yes????

Tomorrow I will park it on my cement pad, jack it up, and have a
look. Where would I find the OS under the car?

DoctorBill EDITED 5:19 pm 1 HOUR 6 MINUTES LATER....

BBBBRRRR!!! COLD.

Actually changing the O2 sensor is a dream on this car. In fact a left-handed metric cresent wrench may be all that you need. ;-) Should not take longer than 3-5 minutes to swap out.

Open the hood and look on the front of your exhaust manifold; low and behold there it is! No jacking! As for the snow ripping the wire? I doubt it.

The O2 tell the computer "Too rich" or "Too lean" and the computer changes the injector pulse width to compensate. Perhaps the connector is corroded, or the wire has broken. But most likely the poor thing was already weak and the transition from freezing to several hundred degrees in a mater of seconds was more than the little guy could take.

If the O2 swap does not fix it (it should), then you would ohm test the wire from ECU connector to O2 connector. If its good then your ECU may have expired.

Cheers,
Blake

[DOCTORBILL]

Originally Posted by DieInterim

Actually changing the O2 sensor is a dream on this car.
.
.
Open the hood and look on the front of your exhaust manifold; low and behold there it is! No jacking!

The O2 tell the computer "Too rich" or "Too lean" and the computer changes the injector pulse width to compensate. Perhaps the connector is corroded, or the wire has broken. But most likely the poor thing was already weak and the transition from freezing to several hundred degrees in a mater of seconds was more than the little guy could take.

If the O2 swap does not fix it (it should), then you would ohm test the wire from ECU connector to O2 connector. If its good then your ECU may have expired.
Cheers,
Blake

I will have a look tomorrow.

BTW - The Chilton Manual has a picture of the Oxygen
Sensor on page 4-9, Fig 16 showing it from underneath the vehicle.
That's why I thought maybe I'd ripped it out.
Is the Chilton Manual (01-320) referring to a different year?

Is there any "brand O2 sensor I should use?
Bosch, Niehoff, Std Motor Products ???

Also - what means your 'handle' DieInterim ...?

You have been most helpful! Thanks you.

I am anxious to get this baby back in good operating condition.

Read one of your previous threads about "tune up" and wish
to replace,
"ECU sender $15
Intake air Sender $19
Fuel pressure regulator diaphragm $23
New thermostat $6"

Just TOO F**KING COLD TO DO ANYTHING!

DoctorBill

PS - does the "check engine" light give only one code?

[DieInterim]

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

I will have a look tomorrow.

BTW - The Chilton Manual has a picture of the Oxygen
Sensor on page 4-9, Fig 16 showing it from underneath the vehicle.
That's why I thought maybe I'd ripped it out.
Is the Chilton Manual (01-320) referring to a different year?

Is there any "brand O2 sensor I should use?
Bosch, Niehoff, Std Motor Products ???

Also - what means your 'handle' DieInterim ...?

You have been most helpful! Thanks you.

I am anxious to get this baby back in good operating condition.

Read one of your previous threads about "tune up" and wish
to replace,
"ECU sender $15
Intake air Sender $19
Fuel pressure regulator diaphragm $23
New thermostat $6"

Just TOO F**KING COLD TO DO ANYTHING!

DoctorBill

PS - does the "check engine" light give only one code?

The ECU can store and display several codes. As for the O2, BOSCH is king. I think the one I installed was some bottom of the barrel stock, but it was made in USA. My book says that it can be in the manifold or the down pipe, but I have only seen our years in the manifold.

Hmmm. my handle. WellI am a student of the German tongue and culture so this will explain the term "Die", or "The". Unfortunately this has a female inflection. "Das" is a neutral "The", and "Der" is masculine, but I have used this handle for so many years that I simply have stuck with it.
"Interim" is latin and I use the aadjective form. So in short, "DieInterim" means "The time serving during an intermediate interval of time."

Hey! You asked! ;-)

Blake

[GoogleThis]

Not that I know exactly what happened, and you may not be able wait until the weather warms up to fix it, depending on where you are, but my 95 began acting the exact same way. Tuesday was fine, Wednesday when it was -12F it barely started, and it took nearly 40 miles to feel almost normal.

After sitting in the sun all day and warming up to 3 when I left, it was much better.

Then again yesterday when I got in and it was -9, the same situation as Tuesday morning.

Luckily we were back up to the 20s this morning, and everything felt like normal again.

[DOCTORBILL]

I bought a Bosch O2 Sensor at Schucks and a removal tool to be safe.

What a screwy setup the O2 Sensor is!

I had to remove my oil filter to get at the O2 sensor and then my
7/8 wrench had no room to move! So went to local Hardware store
and bought a "Crows Foot Wrench" set.

The O2 sensor was loose..... Either I had gotten it loose screwing
around with the straight box wrench or it was always loose...(?)

Anyway, replaced it - The old one was covered with soot - Very Black.

Now the car has more power but has an odd effect - too much gas
pedal makes it lose power. If I back off the pedal, it actually
runs better and accelerates! Like it floods with more gas pedal!

HOWEVER, it still won't idle for crap - nearly dies at idle.
Maybe I should adjust it with the Diagnostic Fuse in place.

AND the "Check Engine" light is still on and with a Fuse in the
Diagnostic slot gives one blink and then three blinks.

The first blink is one....after that it would be hard to tell if I am
seeing 13 or 31 as the one blink has the same duration as the three
separate ones have. ????? Even after many repititions, it stays
one\three.

Question - do I have to clear the ECM\PCM of the O2 Sensor
message or will it clear itself ?

I know only one way to clear it - disconnect the battery and press
the brake pedal many times (drains any capacitors in the system).

What say you, Blake (DieInterim)? I tooK German in college - sucked
at it. Hard Language to learn....Ich habe schone kleine gelernt.

DoctorBill

[DieInterim]

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

I bought a Bosch O2 Sensor at Schucks and a removal tool to be safe.

What a screwy setup the O2 Sensor is!

I had to remove my oil filter to get at the O2 sensor and then my
7/8 wrench had no room to move! So went to local Hardware store
and bought a "Crows Foot Wrench" set.

The O2 sensor was loose..... Either I had gotten it loose screwing
around with the straight box wrench or it was always loose...(?)

Anyway, replaced it - The old one was covered with soot - Very Black.

Now the car has more power but has an odd effect - too much gas
pedal makes it lose power. If I back off the pedal, it actually
runs better and accelerates! Like it floods with more gas pedal!

HOWEVER, it still won't idle for crap - nearly dies at idle.
Maybe I should adjust it with the Diagnostic Fuse in place.

AND the "Check Engine" light is still on and with a Fuse in the
Diagnostic slot gives one blink and then three blinks.

The first blink is one....after that it would be hard to tell if I am
seeing 13 or 31 as the one blink has the same duration as the three
separate ones have. ????? Even after many repititions, it stays
one\three.

Question - do I have to clear the ECM\PCM of the O2 Sensor
message or will it clear itself ?

I know only one way to clear it - disconnect the battery and press
the brake pedal many times (drains any capacitors in the system).

What say you, Blake (DieInterim)? I tooK German in college - sucked
at it. Hard Language to learn....Ich habe schone kleine gelernt.

DoctorBill

Hallo,

Wie war dein Tag Herr Frankart? Suhr Gute? Wenig Schlaf hatte ich; meine augen sind blot rot. - Yes I really struggle, but do you know I really find it to be a nice language even though some would say its hard on the ol' voicebox.

Ok, now to clear the codes remove the tail-lamp fuse. Wierd ehh? I recall that you fiddled around with the main idle screw in the recent past, perhaps now you should fiddle again to see if now you can adjust your idle.

My car runs like that..it likes the first 1/3 pedal and after that I can feel a power loss. I only mash down the pedal when I get the rev's going otherwise I stay in that "Sweet spot" you noticed. At first it bothered me but then I realised that when I conformed to the first 1/3 of the pedal I was hitting 50-50+ mpg and still reaching speed up to 70-75mph. Still I am going to spec the TPS to verify its "Korreckt"!

Gruß,
B. Dodson

[DOCTORBILL]

Originally Posted by DieInterim

Hallo,

Wie war dein Tag Herr Frankart? Suhr Gute? Wenig Schlaf hatte ich; meine augen sind blot rot. - Yes I really struggle, but do you know I really find it to be a nice language even though some would say its hard on the ol' voicebox.

Ok, now to clear the codes remove the tail-lamp fuse. Wierd ehh? I recall that you fiddled around with the main idle screw in the recent past, perhaps now you should fiddle again to see if now you can adjust your idle.

My car runs like that..it likes the first 1/3 pedal and after that I can feel a power loss. I only mash down the pedal when I get the rev's going otherwise I stay in that "Sweet spot" you noticed. At first it bothered me but then I realised that when I conformed to the first 1/3 of the pedal I was hitting 50-50+ mpg and still reaching speed up to 70-75mph. Still I am going to spec the TPS to verify its "Korreckt"!

Gruß,
B. Dodson

Wie war dein Tag Herr Frankart? Suhr Gute? - Nicht so gute....

1. Is that overturned red vehicle yours?

2. So I should 'clear' the ECM? yes...?

3. Take out the tail lamp fuse - with the key on? Engine Running?
......for how long?

4. The one then three blinks - no long blink as before.
......Something wrong?

5. The idle adjust...run the engine with the diagnostic fuse in place.
......then adjust the idle screw...out increase / in decrease idle.
......then stop engine and remove fuse or remove fuse then stop
engine?

Details are important....

See my thread on Gear oil. I bought some.

DoctorBill

PS - your spelling of some words....different than I learned.
sehr vs suhr. MY eyes are red too. Ich gehe nach schlaffen....
yetst (now?). 40 years ago!

[DieInterim]

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

Wie war dein Tag Herr Frankart? Suhr Gute? - Nicht so gute....

1. Is that overturned red vehicle yours?

2. So I should 'clear' the ECM? yes...?

3. Take out the tail lamp fuse - with the key on? Engine Running?
......for how long?

4. The one then three blinks - no long blink as before.
......Something wrong?

5. The idle adjust...run the engine with the diagnostic fuse in place.
......then adjust the idle screw...out increase / in decrease idle.
......then stop engine and remove fuse or remove fuse then stop
engine?

Details are important....

See my thread on Gear oil. I bought some.

DoctorBill

PS - your spelling of some words....different than I learned.
sehr vs suhr. MY eyes are red too. Ich gehe nach schlaffen....
yetst (now?). 40 years ago!

Egads. Well there is not one post of mine with proper spelling..even in German! Sehr,Sehr,Sehr. 40 years...good mind you have there..

Pull the diagnostic fuse. With the key in the off position remove the tail-lamp fuse, or pull the negative from the battery. 30 seconds should work yet I prefer 3 minutes. Light should go out.

Idle adjustment is done on a fully warmed engine with a screwdriver. No fuse needed here. Counter = increase, clockwise = decrease.

As for the change in the blinks? Dunno.

Cheers,
Blake

(P.S. - Thats not my metro. That was a rollover with 7 people in it. I gleaned it off the web.)

[DOCTORBILL]

Originally Posted by DieInterim

Pull the diagnostic fuse, or pull the negative from the battery.
30 seconds should work yet I prefer 3 minutes. Light should go out.

Idle adjustment is done on a fully warmed engine with a screwdriver.
No fuse needed here. Counter = increase, clockwise = decrease.


Cheers,
Blake

Last night, I disconnected the negative Battery post and turned the
parking light switch to on. Left it until Noon this morning.

Then I started the engine with the Diagnostic Fuse in place and
adjusted the idle. Several turns out (CCW) increased the idle
a little bit and made the throttle stick hard.

After pushing the throttle in several times the stickiness went away.
What was THAT all about. I wonder if my TB is in bad shape.

Also- the light STILL BLINKS....one long three short.
(Back to dolng long and short this morning) - ?

Does the ECM have to be convinced that the O2 Sensor
is there and working? Could my ECM be shot? How would I know?

A thought - could the O2 Sensor not be making a good ground
to the exhaust manifold? Can I check in with my trusty VOM
for resistance - how many Ohms can I expect?

I'll let you know how it worked later today - driving my 16 year old
daughter into town (70 mile round trip - 55 mph roads).

DoctorBill

PS - your crushed cans/Metro picture is HUGE [94 kb - 9.7 x 7.3 inches]!
You should pare the pics down to smaller size - to 2x3 maybe.
Just a thought......
I didn't know that replacing a pic does it all-throughout the forum
even on previous postings!

[DieInterim]

Originally Posted by DOCTORBILL

Last night, I disconnected the negative Battery post and turned the
parking light switch to on. Left it until Noon this morning.

Then I started the engine with the Diagnostic Fuse in place and
adjusted the idle. Several turns out (CCW) increased the idle
a little bit and made the throttle stick hard.

After pushing the throttle in several times the stickiness went away.
What was THAT all about. I wonder if my TB is in bad shape.

Also- the light STILL BLINKS....one long three short.
(Back to dolng long and short this morning) - ?

Does the ECM have to be convinced that the O2 Sensor
is there and working? Could my ECM be shot? How would I know?

A thought - could the O2 Sensor not be making a good ground
to the exhaust manifold? Can I check in with my trusty VOM
for resistance - how many Ohms can I expect?

I'll let you know how it worked later today - driving my 16 year old
daughter into town (70 mile round trip - 55 mph roads).

DoctorBill

PS - your crushed cans/Metro picture is HUGE [94 kb - 9.7 x 7.3 inches]!
You should pare the pics down to smaller size - to 2x3 maybe.
Just a thought......
I didn't know that replacing a pic does it all-throughout the forum
even on previous postings!

It sounds as if your throttle bore might be mucky dirty; check it out. Carb cleaner does wonders. Is it correct procedure to run the car with the fuse in? If you turned off the car and pulled the taillamp fuse for several seconds and still have the check engine light illuminated then you need to look at the ECU with suspicion. BTW- Now you are verifying so dont put the Diagnostic fuse back in.

Checking the O2 ground is easy. Sand off an area next to the sensor to probe and use the other lead to probe the base of the sensor. It should have no measureable or perhaps just a trace of resistance.

Yes large picture...you must be on dialup. Sry. I wont be keeping it long as I dont want to be rude.

Blake