Bravo! Now this is some good stuff.

[tenguzero]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051206/...climate_usa_dc

It's great to see that there are plenty of Americans out there who aren't content with just bending over and taking every single thing this sorry-ass administration throws at them. And why shouldn't the U.S. take a stand for emission reduction? Is it REALLY such a "threat" to economic prosperity? Forgive me for being blunt, but progressive domestic policy is seemingly the LAST thing those bozos in Washington care about lately -- they obviously don't care about the 2,000 miles of wide-open border, a fast ailing social security system, or pursuing newer, alternative energy sources to relieve our dependence on the same one being increasingly utilized by a quickly developing country with over 5 times our population. So why should they bother pretending to give a damn about our economy?

If this administration was really concerned about our "economic growth", they wouldn't be citing cleaner air mandates as potential harm for the economy. Instead, I might suggest:
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/6-19-2004-55649.asp
(Interesting, quick editorial.)

[YogsVR4]

Kyoto is a joke. The planet has been warming and cooling as long as its existed. One volcanic eruption puts more CO2 and sulfer in the atmosphere then humans have for our entire history. To think we have a global effect is just laughable. These jokers can't predict the weather accurately two days in advance and we're supposed to believe they know what its going to be like in a hundred years.

This administration shouldn't buy into Kyoto and it should get the hell out of the way of any additional legislation on emmissions. If enough people are bamboozled (probably the same way I hear that religions have bamboozled people) enough to believe that tripe, then their demand will cause the change.

To say the administration doesn't give a damn about our economy is an outright lie. Yes there is a problem at the boarder that our politicians are failing us on, but the economy is cooking along pretty damn well. Our dependance on oil will end when you step up to the plate and get the backing to build the technology and invest in the infrastructure.

Lots of people sitting on their ass demanding that we get off our dependance, but not doing a damn thing about it (other then complain). Especially on an automotive forum where 99.99999% of the cars use an oil based fuel and a good portion of the membership here has modified their car in such a way that its less gass efficient and hence more 'green house gas' emmitting.


Screw this. I'm going home, walking into the woods and dumping my last oil change on the nearest maple tree.

[2strokebloke]

Oh no - clean air will ruin our economy!
Sounds like a weak cover - perhaps Bush should just come right out with it and say that he thinks it's BS. Or maybe that he doesn't understand big words like "pollution" or "air"

[TexasF355F1]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

Kyoto is a joke. The planet has been warming and cooling as long as its existed. One volcanic eruption puts more CO2 and sulfer in the atmosphere then humans have for our entire history. To think we have a global effect is just laughable. These jokers can't predict the weather accurately two days in advance and we're supposed to believe they know what its going to be like in a hundred years.

This administration shouldn't buy into Kyoto and it should get the hell out of the way of any additional legislation on emmissions. If enough people are bamboozled (probably the same way I hear that religions have bamboozled people) enough to believe that tripe, then their demand will cause the change.

To say the administration doesn't give a damn about our economy is an outright lie. Yes there is a problem at the boarder that our politicians are failing us on, but the economy is cooking along pretty damn well. Our dependance on oil will end when you step up to the plate and get the backing to build the technology and invest in the infrastructure.

Lots of people sitting on their ass demanding that we get off our dependance, but not doing a damn thing about it (other then complain). Especially on an automotive forum where 99.99999% of the cars use an oil based fuel and a good portion of the membership here has modified their car in such a way that its less gass efficient and hence more 'green house gas' emmitting.


Screw this. I'm going home, walking into the woods and dumping my last oil change on the nearest maple tree.

And don't forget the moronic hippy organizations out there (Greenpeace), that pollute the air ten-fold by burning massive amounts of things they dislike and that don't even belong to them. There's never been and never will be enough proof to make me believe there's a global warming issue.

As Yogs said, the earth has gone through numerous climate and weather changes since its birth. There's already been an ice age. Something had to make the ice melt, and it wasn't cars or plants.

[Muscletang]

I agree that we need to keep an eye open because humans are affecting the world. Air has been found frozen in ice several times and the carbon dioxide levels were much lower back then in every case.

I also agree though that we shouldn't crack down on stuff.
How is it that Americans should be conserving? Tell the assholes down in South American to stop cutting down the fucking rain forest. Get to Africa and tell them to stop dumping their raw sewage into the Nile River which empties into the ocean. How is it that America is fucking up the environment?

[tenguzero]

Actually, data shows that there has most likely been MANY Ice Ages. We are (I believe) headed into the warming part of the cycle --everything melts, the Earth's waters rise, the climate becomes more tropical, and this goes on for about 20,000 years or so. Then the climate shifts, the weather begins to get colder, and then another ice age begins moving in. Anyone who studies scientific, and particularly astronomical processes, will tell you that the sun has cycles within cycles within cycles. Hell, every 11,000 years (or something like that) the Earth's poles reverse polarity.

But this doesn't mean that gives us the right to continue polluting the way we do.

Yogs,
I find your ignorance on this matter to be laughable, congratulations on buying into the most hackneyed viewpoint ever. I would like you to go hang out in downtown Hong Kong, or Seoul, or Tokyo. Take a nice, big inhale. Now do it again. I hear Mt. Fuji is quit a sight -- on the days when it's visible through the smog.

You people should pull your heads out of your nether-regions and realize something -- YES, it is about the environment, but even more so it's about THE PEOPLE.

Texas,

There's never been and never will be enough proof to make me believe there's a global warming issue.

As Yogs said, the earth has gone through numerous climate and weather changes since its birth. There's already been an ice age. Something had to make the ice melt, and it wasn't cars or plants.

So, you say there's never been and never will be enough proof to make you believe in a global warming issue, and yet you also believe there's been numerous climate and weather changes since the earth's birth? How can you say the ice age melted from a global warming, but yet say you don't buy into the theory? Last time I checked, something's making all that ice up north melt pretty quickly...

[tenguzero]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

I agree that we need to keep an eye open because humans are affecting the world. Air has been found frozen in ice several times and the carbon dioxide levels were much lower back then in every case.

I also agree though that we shouldn't crack down on stuff.
How is it that Americans should be conserving? Tell the assholes down in South American to stop cutting down the fucking rain forest. Get to Africa and tell them to stop dumping their raw sewage into the Nile River which empties into the ocean. How is it that America is fucking up the environment?

You're right on that account -- there is a lot of bad stuff going on in other countries as well. It is most certainly not the fault of America alone. However, unlike many less developed or poorly run countries, we actually have the power to do something about our situation, which brings me back to the reason I started this thread. I'm glad to see that it's more than just "moronic hippies" and Greenpeace nuts who are at least starting to give a damn. It's local governments and companies and people who might be our neighbors. Obviously there are some of us who couldn't give a crap -- unless it was good for their bank books

[thrasher]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

I also agree though that we shouldn't crack down on stuff.
How is it that Americans should be conserving? Tell the assholes down in South American to stop cutting down the fucking rain forest. Get to Africa and tell them to stop dumping their raw sewage into the Nile River which empties into the ocean. How is it that America is fucking up the environment?

Slash and burn agriculture is the only way for people in dirt poor countries like Brazil to live. I don't think you have the right to tell them that while you are living in a comfortable home, wasting your time typing on the internet that they should just stop creating food for themselves and die. They are uneducated about proper crop rotation that could easily sustain the needs of them and their families and friends, which means they need aid in this area, from rich countries like us. As far as the African dumping, what, do you think they have landfills? Someone to drive by and pick up their garbage?

I fully agree with you teng about the overall issue, anyone who denies that we as a species are impacting the environment in a negative are either ignorant or uneducated, pick one.

[Tehvisseeus]

Originally Posted by thrasher

I don't think you have the right to tell them that while you are living in a comfortable home, wasting your time typing on the internet that they should just stop creating food for themselves and die.

Your following a very slippery slope. What gives them the right to demand that we should give up the ammenities that make our lives better? While I agree that humans probably have an impact, I believe that it is something that our technology will naturally resolve on its own as we begin to switch to nuclear, hydrogen, etc etc.

You can make the point that the US should clean up and it should however we've made a great amount of progress. Unlike how it was a few years ago, every time Ive driven by LA recently I've been able to see and there hasn't been too much smog, unlike Tokyo as Teng mentioned. Technology will naturally develope itself into a cleaner fuel and Kyoto is simply something thatll hurt us and the rest of the world as some in Europe should be experiencing pretty soon.

[AlmostStock]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4467420.stm

Gas bubbles trapped in ice store valuable climatic information


Current levels of the greenhouse gases carbon dioxide and methane in the atmosphere are higher now than at any time in the past 650,000 years.

"We find that CO2 is about 30% higher than at any time, and methane 130% higher than at any time; and the rates of increase are absolutely exceptional: for CO2, 200 times faster than at any time in the last 650,000 years."



650,000 years! I think that more than covers all the "natural cycles"

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by tenguzero

Yogs,
I find your ignorance on this matter to be laughable, congratulations on buying into the most hackneyed viewpoint ever. I would like you to go hang out in downtown Hong Kong, or Seoul, or Tokyo. Take a nice, big inhale. Now do it again. I hear Mt. Fuji is quit a sight -- on the days when it's visible through the smog.

You must have some sort of reading disorder. That, or you can't tell the difference between pollution and global warming.

What is laughable are all the chicken littles running around with their dire predictions of calamity over the years. http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/19...5_alarmism.htm

[YogsVR4]

These people are idiots.

"The defining cause of climate change is human activity – primarily how we produce and use energy," he told a United Nations climate change summit in Montreal on Wednesday. - Paul Martin

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...te_051207.html


Perhaps he's not heard of the Sun.

[BNaylor]

Global warming? Down to -37 degrees in Colorado, -45 in Montana, and +6 degrees in Texas. What global warming? See link below:


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051207/...s/cold_weather

[thrasher]

Originally Posted by AlmostStock

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4467420.stm

Gas bubbles trapped in ice store valuable climatic information


Current levels of the greenhouse gases carbon dioxide and methane in the atmosphere are higher now than at any time in the past 650,000 years.

"We find that CO2 is about 30% higher than at any time, and methane 130% higher than at any time; and the rates of increase are absolutely exceptional: for CO2, 200 times faster than at any time in the last 650,000 years."



650,000 years! I think that more than covers all the "natural cycles"

Exactly, it's not the current greenhouse gas levels that give it away, it's the unbelievable rate of increase that incidentally coincides with industrial expansion in the last 150 years...doesn't take a genius to put the two together. Now that doesn't necessarily imply causality, but such strong correlations are hard to ignore.

[tenguzero]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

You must have some sort of reading disorder. That, or you can't tell the difference between pollution and global warming.

What is laughable are all the chicken littles running around with their dire predictions of calamity over the years. http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/19...5_alarmism.htm

Yes, pollutants from automotive and industrial output -- and what is the primary chemicals contained in smog? The same one's that play key roles in global temperature changes. All of that is going somewhere, and the atmosphere is just as effective in keeping gases in as it is keeping externals (radiation, etc) out. Hence, it has got to settle somewhere, and while plant life (both on land and in the ocean) is very good at scrubbing the air, there is often a noticeable lack of plant life in heavily developed areas.

I guess what I'm saying is that there's no better time than now to initiate policies to better our interaction with the environment. The excuse that it "threatens economic growth" is something that will always be used no matter WHAT the situation.

And AGAIN, my main point in this thread is that I'm glad to see that private parties and local governments are taking it upon themselves to make changes even though the feds claim it will hurt growth.

Lots of people sitting on their ass demanding that we get off our dependance, but not doing a damn thing about it (other then complain).

These parties ARE getting off their asses and doing something about it, and yet YOU still complain that people AREN'T. I'm seeing a lot of contradictions here.