The Propitiation

[Gruffnagle]

Why does God allow suffering?

www.propitiation.info

[eversio11]

That raises a good point, not all suffering is bad. While the physical or mental act 'to suffer' is painful and therefore bad, it can ultimately be rewarding.

[2.2 Straight six]

Originally Posted by eversio11

That raises a good point, not all suffering is bad. While the physical or mental act 'to suffer' is painful and therefore bad, it can ultimately be rewarding.

gotta be cruel to be kind huh ?

[Twizted_3KGT]

I don't get how that explains why He allows suffering, seems like it says God hates man, but Jesus is a loophole around God to get in Heaven.

The only thing I wonder about on this topic is: Take the kids from the Colombine incident, look at their life, they never chose one way or the other, they were raised without God, never knew right from wrong, and now their condemned to Hell for eternity? Doesn't seem "just" to me. Or the 100,000 other similar cases, people that live and die without ever having the opportunity to know God, not even once, kids raised to hate God and die, is it "just" that they go to Hell for eternity?

[eversio11]

Originally Posted by Twizted_3KGT

I don't get how that explains why He allows suffering, seems like it says God hates man, but Jesus is a loophole around God to get in Heaven.

The only thing I wonder about on this topic is: Take the kids from the Colombine incident, look at their life, they never chose one way or the other, they were raised without God, never knew right from wrong, and now their condemned to Hell for eternity? Doesn't seem "just" to me. Or the 100,000 other similar cases, people that live and die without ever having the opportunity to know God, not even once, kids raised to hate God and die, is it "just" that they go to Hell for eternity?

Well, the way I undestand it is unbaptized babies, pagans, and all the others who never had the opportunity to accept God are sent to purgatory. It's not quite eternal suffering, but it's no eternal bliss. Besides, it's God's Heaven, he can let anyone he wants in and keep anyone he wants out.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by Twizted_3KGT

I don't get how that explains why He allows suffering, seems like it says God hates man, but Jesus is a loophole around God to get in Heaven.

Not really a loophole around God rather a loophole to God.

The only thing I wonder about on this topic is: Take the kids from the Colombine incident, look at their life, they never chose one way or the other, they were raised without God, never knew right from wrong, and now their condemned to Hell for eternity?

Are you referring to the kids who did the killing or the ones who were killed?

Doesn't seem "just" to me. Or the 100,000 other similar cases, people that live and die without ever having the opportunity to know God, not even once, kids raised to hate God and die, is it "just" that they go to Hell for eternity?

It's hard to imagine anyone who never had the opportunity to know God but I guess it can happen. For those I imagine they will be judged on their own merit rather than on the merit of Jesus. God is just and I am sure He will judge them justly. As for those that are raised to hate God; it is their choice to continue to hate once they are old enough to make up their own mind. The thing is that they must believe their is a God in order for them to hate Him. So if they believe there is a God then they are half way there. What I don't get is why hate someone you know nothing about?

[ec437]

Originally Posted by Twizted_3KGT

Take the kids from the Colombine incident, look at their life, they never chose one way or the other, they were raised without God, never knew right from wrong, and now their condemned to Hell for eternity? Doesn't seem "just" to me. Or the 100,000 other similar cases, people that live and die without ever having the opportunity to know God, not even once, kids raised to hate God and die, is it "just" that they go to Hell for eternity?

What about that one that was killed after being asked if she was a Christian? She said yes and they pulled the trigger. There is now a book written about her life. So apparently, they did choose one way or the other, they did know about God, they had a chance, and now they are condemned.

[Twizted_3KGT]

Are you referring to the kids who did the killing or the ones who were killed?

I was referring to the kids that did the killing.

As for those that are raised to hate God; it is their choice to continue to hate once they are old enough to make up their own mind.

Well for one thing, if you're raised a certain way, those brain patterns are grooved in, it's not that simple. But aside from that...what of the ones that are raised Atheist? Or Poligamist? Once they're "old enough" to decide for themselves, they'll believe what they were taught they're entire lives, should they be punished for that? If it's wrong for me to question what I was taught my whole life, isn't it the same for them? I always think of the Native Americans before Europe came over...what about a child born and raised in that culture? They worshiped trees, sky, and sun...never hearing once about God...they were people just like us, they had souls too...so they get Purgatory?

Besides, it's God's Heaven, he can let anyone he wants in and keep anyone he wants out.

Well true...why should anyone thats out have to suffer eternally though? It's not like we can rally up and change God's mind, it is whatever He says it is...but even that's unclear...why not give a clear meaning of what to do while we're here, instead of having to interpret (human error) and having different religions?

Does anyone else think religion is BS? I believe in God, but I don't think religion can be right, it was made by men.

[drunken monkey]

leave any god out of the question.

why do people allow suffering?

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by Twizted_3KGT

I was referring to the kids that did the killing.

They lived and were raised in the US. They had a better chance than some to hear about God. They made their choices and not only chose to turn their back on God they also chose to turn their back on man.
They will be judged according to their actions.

Well for one thing, if you're raised a certain way, those brain patterns are grooved in, it's not that simple.

You're right that it's not that simple. Who said it should be simple? Was it simple for Jesus to go through what He did?

But aside from that...what of the ones that are raised Atheist? Or Poligamist? Once they're "old enough" to decide for themselves, they'll believe what they were taught they're entire lives,

Not true. I know people who were raised athiest who turned to God. I also know people who were raised Christian who turned their backs on God.

should they be punished for that?

Punished or rewarded.

If it's wrong for me to question what I was taught my whole life, isn't it the same for them?

It's not wrong to question what you were taught your whole life.

I always think of the Native Americans before Europe came over...what about a child born and raised in that culture? They worshiped trees, sky, and sun...never hearing once about God...they were people just like us, they had souls too...so they get Purgatory?

As I stated earlier... God is just. IMO He will judge them on their own merit rather than on the merit of Jesus.

Well true...why should anyone thats out have to suffer eternally though?

Sin cannot enter heaven. He made the rules and He made heaven.

It's not like we can rally up and change God's mind,

There are those who have done just that. The verses escape me but the Bible talks about some that have prayed and changed His mind.

it is whatever He says it is...but even that's unclear...why not give a clear meaning of what to do while we're here, instead of having to interpret (human error) and having different religions?

That's true. So what you need to do is find out for yourself instead of just listening to people and their ideas of what's right. Get to know the God you believe in. Everyone has their own walk with God. You choose how close that walk is and what that relationship with Him will be.

Does anyone else think religion is BS? I believe in God, but I don't think religion can be right, it was made by men.

Religion is simply putting into practice what you believe. "Doing it religiously" So it is man made in a sense. That doesn't mean the tools of religion are flawed. Just some of the interpretors of those tools.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

leave any god out of the question.

why do people allow suffering?

There you go. Good question.

[Twizted_3KGT]

You're right that it's not that simple. Who said it should be simple? Was it simple for Jesus to go through what He did?

You have a lot of good points...the thing about this is, Jesus was told exactly what his purpose was, and raised exactly how he should have been....thus making it "easy" to face all that he went through (easier than it is for those of us that haven't been spoken to by God or an angel, or w/e happened).

They made their choices and not only chose to turn their back on God they also chose to turn their back on man.
They will be judged according to their actions.

And the thing about this is, I don't believe they ever understood what turning their back really meant, they couldn't have had a grasp on the consequences of that action. If they were never taught it, how should they know?

It's not wrong to question what you were taught your whole life.

Well it feels wrong, feels like anytime I think whether or not what i'm "supposed" to believe is right, God is watching sayin "how dare you question me you ingrate, after all i've done for you!", ya know?

Quote: <HR SIZE=1>But aside from that...what of the ones that are raised Atheist? Or Poligamist? Once they're "old enough" to decide for themselves, they'll believe what they were taught they're entire lives, <HR SIZE=1>

What I meant by that was, what about when these people are raised with their backs to God, and die at like age 16? They aren't kids, but they aren't out of their parental influence either.

That's true. So what you need to do is find out for yourself instead of just listening to people and their ideas of what's right. Get to know the God you believe in. Everyone has their own walk with God. You choose how close that walk is and what that relationship with Him will be.

Well that was my plan, but how do I know that what I come up with won't get me sent to Hell? There's no second chances with this stuff.

People rallying to change God's mind? Doesn't seem possible, 1) God is perfect, so he gets it right the first time 2) it's not a democracy by any means...that just wouldn't make any sense.

[KatWoman097]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

leave any god out of the question.

why do people allow suffering?

In my view, God allows suffering because:

1. Mankind (ok Eve, that bitch!) fell into temptation and disobeyed God. He (God) then made it clear from then on man would have to toil and labor and childbirth would be painful for women - so in this we were warned from the beginning that we would suffer for choosing evil.

2. He uses suffering bring us closer to Him, to teach us life lessons, or to prepare us for other events yet to happen our lives. God wants us to rely on Him and not ourselves or material things to get us out of a bind. Suffering can teach us how to deal with and make it through certain situations.

3. For Christians, it is a test of our faith or a wake up call to review how we are living our lives and to bring us back around when we fall away.


As for why people allow suffering? - because when people tend to feel down, they need to inflict harm on others to boost themselves. This can range from something so slight as kids picking on each other at the playground or government officials using their position to take advantage of others who are in a weak position. It all boils down to someone feeling the need to piss in someone else's Cheerios at all levels.

[ct91rs]

Originally Posted by Twizted_3KGT

You have a lot of good points...the thing about this is, Jesus was told exactly what his purpose was, and raised exactly how he should have been....thus making it "easy" to face all that he went through (easier than it is for those of us that haven't been spoken to by God or an angel, or w/e happened).

Saying Jesus had it easy is either an ignorant statement, or just out of line. If he is the Son of God, as he claimed to be, he lived a sinless life. He faced the same temptations as every other human, but he never gave into temptation. Most people (myself included) are hard pressed to go a single day without caving in for some type of sin.

Originally Posted by Twizted_3KGT

And the thing about this is, I don't believe they ever understood what turning their back really meant, they couldn't have had a grasp on the consequences of that action. If they were never taught it, how should they know?

Romans 1:20 “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and devine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Jeremiah 29:13 “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.”

Originally Posted by Twizted_3KGT

Well it feels wrong, feels like anytime I think whether or not what i'm "supposed" to believe is right, God is watching sayin "how dare you question me you ingrate, after all i've done for you!", ya know?

1 Thessalonians 5:21 “Test everything hold fast to that which is true.”

Originally Posted by Twizted_3KGT

What I meant by that was, what about when these people are raised with their backs to God, and die at like age 16? They aren't kids, but they aren't out of their parental influence either.

Are you implying that people, who are 16 years old or younger, are incapable of making their own decisions?

Originally Posted by Twizted_3KGT

Well that was my plan, but how do I know that what I come up with won't get me sent to Hell? There's no second chances with this stuff.

Here’s the way to avoid Hell: Believe in, and follow, Jesus Christ.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by Twizted_3KGT

You have a lot of good points...the thing about this is, Jesus was told exactly what his purpose was, and raised exactly how he should have been....thus making it "easy" to face all that he went through (easier than it is for those of us that haven't been spoken to by God or an angel, or w/e happened).

So you are saying that He at least knew he was unquestionably right which made what He went through easier than if He wasn't sure He was right. Right?

I can see your point. That's why it's so important to make sure you know God rather than relying on others to tell you about Him. Then you will gain the confidence you want.

And the thing about this is, I don't believe they ever understood what turning their back really meant, they couldn't have had a grasp on the consequences of that action. If they were never taught it, how should they know?

I can't really add anything more that CT91RS has said on this one.

Well it feels wrong, feels like anytime I think whether or not what i'm "supposed" to believe is right, God is watching sayin "how dare you question me you ingrate, after all i've done for you!", ya know?

It seems like you see God as a hard arrogant overlord type.
I see Him more as I see my Father and hopefully the way my son sees me. Strong, dependible, strict when I needed it....ect.

Anyway...He knows you are going to make mistakes just as I know my son will make mistakes. It's what my son does after he makes a mistake that's the most important to me. I want him to learn from it and grow from it and don't be ashamed or to proud to say "I was wrong." Then ask for forgiveness. Hopefully he will never make that mistake again.

What I meant by that was, what about when these people are raised with their backs to God, and die at like age 16? They aren't kids, but they aren't out of their parental influence either.

CT has that covered.

Well that was my plan, but how do I know that what I come up with won't get me sent to Hell? There's no second chances with this stuff.

Scary choices huh? It would be easy for me to just point at what I believe to be true and just say do it this way. How long would that last in your life though? Until the next guy came along and said " do it my way because I know I'm right." ? You are stuck in the middle saying wheres the proof ?

I could go into a longer post about how I became a Christian and what convinced me I am not wrong about my decision but that's something better to talk to someone face to face IMO. I will say that it wasn't a decision I took lightly because of the same reasons you point out.
My best advice would be to start with what you know or believe you know.You believe there is a God. That's a good place to start.
Start looking for Him. He won't ignore you if you really want to know Him.

I have to get to work. Talk at ya later.

DGB