What's the deal?

[longlivetheZ]

I guess I just don't get it.

What's up with NASCAR? Who NASCARes?...lol...wasn't that funny? Sorry...just thought of that...had to say it. But seriously...what's the big draw to NASCAR? Some dudes driving around to the left, not even going REALLY fast in the grand scheme of things...does EVERYONE watch for the crashes? I know that the vast majority of drivers involved in accidents walk away so watching for the accidents alone is nothing to feel guilty about...thank God...cuz I've even found myself watching race highlights just to see the NASCAR crashes, too. Indy cars...do the SAME THING, but MUCH faster...NASCAR cars average 135 mph (source: nascar.com). F1 cars run WAY over 200 mph...around 220 or so (source: F1.com)...and they're going around ROAD COURSES! Indy cars go round and round just like the NASCAR guys do, but still...WAY faster, around 215 mph. Why watch "slow" cars go around in circles? I don't get it. Hell...WRC Rally cars probably average 80 or 90...and they're in DIRT...with CLIFFS and TREES and what not on both sides of them...AND they're going around turns...REALLY SHARP turns.

Now...yes I know NASCARS weigh twice as much as Indy/F1 cars and have less power and on and on. Need not state the obvious. Of course the lighter, more powerful cars will be faster. That's not my point. My point is, why is THIS...a bunch of the not-fastest, not-prettiest, not most-technoligically advanced cars going round...and round...and round...and round...and....so on...for hours and hours and hours...one of (if not THE) most popular thing in the US?

I was just wondering if someone could clarify a bit for me.

[TheStang00]

well some people watch it because they arent ignorant. its a very different type of racing, more physical and very close competition. cars are inches away from each other all the time. plus more people can relate to nascar, you dont see indy cars runnin around short tracks do you? i am a fan of F1 and IRL and CART and NASCAR...just because you only turn left doesnt mean its easy, those guys in nascar are as good as anyone. like a road course, an oval has turns and straightaways... its really no different.

[theFREAKnasty82]

this is the same question someone posted on this forum over a year ago; read it and see if you find your answer:

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=291697

my , is F1 well known here? People only know about Indy b/c of Danica Patrick, that's it. Other sports don't interest most people in America b/c of the marketing. NASCAR has spent billons to get people from all other the world to like it. On a personal note, who wouldn't love the sound of a 358 cu. in. V8 roaring at 8,000 RPM? That's like listening to birds singing first thing in the morning to me; so melodic & therapeudic.

[BullShifter]

You can't compare an average speed of a Cup car to a top speed of an F1 car. NASCAR runs well over 200mph w/ avg speeds above 180mph at a handful of tracks running side by side in a pack of 20+ cars. I have yet to see F1 cars do that, but then again how can anyone compare F1 to NASCAR. F1 does not average 200+mph on a road course, they're lucky to hit it for a few seconds on long straights. Sounds like you never saw either in person.

Stang if your a fan of "CART" then you should know there is no such thing any more, it CCWS - Champ Car World Series.

I am just a race fan whether it be NASCAR, F1, IRL, WRC, NHRA, WoO, MotoGP, etc. Racing is Racing.

Cup engines run upwards of 9,000rpm, not 8,000, which is even better.

I've often wondered why NSACAR is the most popular racing in the USA, the only place it's most popular. Like stang said it's because people can relate to them. There are many race fans like you that don't have a clue Z. Another thing is you can see most of an oval track while your there in person compared to a road course. I've been to many races, I'll use Indy for example which is a terrible track to watch a race at. I sat near start/finish line for the F1 race and saw the cars for a very short time while the IRL and NASCAR races you actually see some action.

[TheStang00]

Originally Posted by jackasssi

Stang if your a fan of "CART" then you should know there is no such thing any more, it CCWS - Champ Car World Series.

christ you dont have to get all technical... i was well aware of that fact. everyone still calls it cart anyway.

[longlivetheZ]

Originally Posted by jackasssi

You can't compare an average speed of a Cup car to a top speed of an F1 car. NASCAR runs well over 200mph w/ avg speeds above 180mph at a handful of tracks running side by side in a pack of 20+ cars. I have yet to see F1 cars do that, but then again how can anyone compare F1 to NASCAR. F1 does not average 200+mph on a road course, they're lucky to hit it for a few seconds on long straights. Sounds like you never saw either in person.

I knew someone would say something like this. That wasn't my point. Also, I got the avg speeds I used as examples from each league's home page. I didn't just make them up. I don't know what kind of tracks they were on when the avg speeds I saw were run.

Originally Posted by jackasssi

Another thing is you can see most of an oval track while your there in person compared to a road course. I've been to many races, I'll use Indy for example which is a terrible track to watch a race at. I sat near start/finish line for the F1 race and saw the cars for a very short time while the IRL and NASCAR races you actually see some action.

That's a good point. I had never really thought about it.

So, basically, people like it cuz it's more fun to go to in person (and no, I've never been to either type of racing even), they can relate to the drivers more and because that's what the sponsors WANT us to like. That basically sum it up?

Oh...and, to me, the best sounding thing in the world is a turbo spooling up on a high revving 6 cylinder engine. Not a V8 fan, but if I had to drive a V8, I'd want a hemi...gotta love em. How can you not think an F1 car blasting by you at 12000 rpms and 220+ mph doesn't sound amazing? I can stand out on the sidewalk and listen to Mustangs and Camaros drive by all day that sound similar to a NASCAR.

[MrPbody]

Considering it's roots, it's not difficult to understand why circle track racing is so popular. It's a true piece of "Americana", moonshine runners, and all.
When it started, cars were "real" cars, slightly modified. Today we have the natural evolution of the basic car. By requiring things like RWD (live axle), 5.8 lr. limit on engines, single carb (not injected or blown), pushrods, 4-speeds, etc., it rings of good ol' American hot rods.
If you don't realize the significance of a car that DOES weigh twice as much, has zero electronics (except ignition ampliiers), flat tappets (by rule!) and can still generate over 800 horsepower and live at 9,200 RPM for 600 miles, you might want some education as to what it takes to be able to do this.
Cup cars cost about $100K to build (including engine). Indy cars and F-1 cars cost over $1M. There's another point for the stockers.

In 1987, some FIA guys with a a Porsche race car (I think it was a 356) challenged ANY NASCAR team to a shootout. The contest was done at the 7 mile oval outside Columbus, Ohio. The only NASCAR "taker" was Dave Marcus, a middle-of-the-pack guy on his better days. He ran a Monte Carlo at that time.
The Porsche went 221 or so. The team patteed each other on the back and got ready to load up the car. Marcus went 223...
So the Porsche guys put the "aero" nose on it, taller tires, and dialed the boost up a few pounds. The car went 248. Marcus put wheel covers on the Chevy, lowered it 1", and put a 950 CFM carb on it (limited to 850 by rule). 256...
Porsche guys dialed up the boost to max. 261 or so. Marcus put 2 4-bbls. on it and cracked 270.
The Porsche guys loaded it up and went home, tail between their legs.

The point? Understand rules are the most restricting issues in NASCAR. In "unlimited" mode, nothing is faster top speed, except NHRA, and they can only do it for a second or so.
NASCAR limits the capability to avoid all the negative publicity that comes with crashes that kill people. If they turned them "loose", you would see average speeds well over 230 today, on the big ovals. Aerodynamics are the key to that one. The wind tunnel work on these cars is nothing short of art.

They run the Indy cars at Ricmond now. This year was the third annual. We went last year. They are pretty fun to watch. But there's just something about 43 cars on the track together (as opposed to 23 or 33), and cars that bang fenders and "swap paint". Little Al (Unser) was so intimidated by his only Daytona 500, he was still pale and shaking during the interview after the race, where he finished a lap down, middle of the pack. "These guys race TOO close for me!" He swore he would never be back, and has upheld that.

Don't mock what you don't understand...

PAX
Jim

[TheStang00]

Originally Posted by longlivetheZ

I can stand out on the sidewalk and listen to Mustangs and Camaros drive by all day that sound similar to a NASCAR.

that is so wrong its incredible... you obviously havent been to a nascar race. you really have no idea.

also a lot of people can relate to it because thats what they do... like i said before, how many indy cars do you see runnin around short tracks

[street_racer_00]

Sigh, another ignorant person...I don't even want to get started on the things you are completely wrong about, mr Z.

[longlivetheZ]

Originally Posted by MrPbody

Considering it's roots, it's not difficult to understand why circle track racing is so popular. It's a true piece of "Americana", moonshine runners, and all.

Yup...NASCAR actually came to be true due to the moonshiners.

Originally Posted by MrPbody

If you don't realize the significance of a car that DOES weigh twice as much, has zero electronics (except ignition ampliiers), flat tappets (by rule!) and can still generate over 800 horsepower and live at 9,200 RPM for 600 miles, you might want some education as to what it takes to be able to do this.

Believe me, I need no education as to the significance [sp] of this. I know this. It's pretty cool, but F1 cars do the same thing at higher RPM, at higher speeds and at higher sustained speeds. Again, I need not prove this beacause the numbers I used before were FROM the OFFICIAL WEBSITES of the race leagues. I need not say this again, right? This is not my point. My question is why is it so popular? Please, stop making me repeat this.

Originally Posted by MrPbody

Cup cars cost about $100K to build (including engine). Indy cars and F-1 cars cost over $1M. There's another point for the stockers.

~130K for the NASCAR cars as opposed to the ~400K+ for the F1 type car, according to the "Modern Marvels" show on TLC if I remember correctly. Please...this is again NOT my point.

Originally Posted by MrPbody

In 1987, some FIA guys with a a Porsche race car (I think it was a 356) challenged ANY NASCAR team to a shootout. The contest was done at the 7 mile oval outside Columbus, Ohio. The only NASCAR "taker" was Dave Marcus, a middle-of-the-pack guy on his better days. He ran a Monte Carlo at that time.
The Porsche went 221 or so. The team patteed each other on the back and got ready to load up the car. Marcus went 223...
So the Porsche guys put the "aero" nose on it, taller tires, and dialed the boost up a few pounds. The car went 248. Marcus put wheel covers on the Chevy, lowered it 1", and put a 950 CFM carb on it (limited to 850 by rule). 256...
Porsche guys dialed up the boost to max. 261 or so. Marcus put 2 4-bbls. on it and cracked 270.
The Porsche guys loaded it up and went home, tail between their legs.

The point? Understand rules are the most restricting issues in NASCAR. In "unlimited" mode, nothing is faster top speed, except NHRA, and they can only do it for a second or so.

So...ha...you're telling me that a NASCAR could go as fast as an NHRA drag car if it weren't for the restrictions? Right. I DEFINATELY don't believe that shit. Come on, man. Drag cars are made to run a quarter mile at a time and exert ALL of their power over this short time. They get at LEAST partially rebuilt after every 2-3 races...at least. NASCAR engines are built to run how many hundreds of miles without breaking down? How long would an NHRA car run in a NASCAR race on it's best day? Please. Stop this shit. It's not even CLOSE to my point.

Originally Posted by MrPbody

If they turned them "loose", you would see average speeds well over 230 today, on the big ovals.

Bull. I raise a big fat BS flag to that one. You're telling me that a bigger, heavier, less aerodynamic car with less power will go faster for a longer period of time than a car that's (way) more powerful (by at least 200 hp...if not way more), (way) lighter (by about half), and more aerodynamic...right...I wouldn't bet the farm on that one, chief. But...yet AGAIN...this is not even CLOSE to my point. You seem to be trying to prove to me that the NASCAR cars are faster. Just not true, man. My point is why is this so popular.

Originally Posted by MrPbody

Aerodynamics are the key to that one. The wind tunnel work on these cars is nothing short of art.

And they're not for F1 type cars? Again...not my point...

Originally Posted by MrPbody

Don't mock what you don't understand...

Watch your mouth. I mock nothing I don't know.

Originally Posted by TheStang00

that is so wrong its incredible... you obviously havent been to a nascar race. you really have no idea.

No, I never have, but what does this REALLY have to do with what I said? They sound very similar...a 4.6L Mustang, for instance and a 5.7(or whatever) Camaro...they both are all gurgly and all...take the exhaust and the cat off of these cars (or something in the middle at least) and, when reved to beyond 8K rpm, it would sound about the same...you can't argue that. You get my point? This was just a slight side note anyway...not even important...just forget it.

Originally Posted by TheStang00

also a lot of people can relate to it because thats what they do... like i said before, how many indy cars do you see runnin around short tracks

From what I take from this statement, I say that I don't know anyone running short tracks, either...<shrug>

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL of THISSSSSSSSSSSS SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT is COMPLETEEEEEEEEEEELY NOT what I was AFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by street_racer_00

Sigh, another ignorant person...I don't even want to get started on the things you are completely wrong about, mr Z.

Ok. Whatever. I deeply resent the ignorant comment, though. I come here saying nothing about anybody and you come here saying that. Why? I'm definately anything but ignorant.

[BullShifter]

There is NO WAY in hell a F1 car averages over 200mph on a road course, that's there AVERAGE TOP SPEED not overall AVERAGE which is a HUGE difference. Think about it, there are more times the cars are under 100mph than they are over 200mph. All you need to do is watch a live qualifying event on SPEED and you see will it's not true. Don't get me wrong NOTHING in the world is faster considering what they do, accelerate, brake, & turn. Sure a Top Fuel Nitro car can go over 330mph but it can't turn or stop and only lasts for 1320' - 1/4mile. The closest thing to an F1 car is a MotoGP bike and they are still way off the lap times.

It's not BS about the 230mph in a cup car. Take Rusty Wallace's test at Talladega where restrictor plates are normally used. They wanted to see what the potenial without out a plate would be just because they can and he ran over 230mph AVERAGE speed.

F1 cars run upwards of 16,000rpm, Ferrari runs near 19,000rpm with a 9,000rpm idle.

Here are some facts on race cars
World of Outlaws
$50,000 700HP

NASCAR cup car
$150,000 850HP 0-60 4.0sec

Top Fuel dragster
$250,000 7,000HP 0-60 .5sec

Indy car
$500,000 675HP 0-60 3.6sec

ALMS car
$1million 750HP 0-60 2.9sec

F1
$14million 850HP 0-60 2.3sec

Keep in mind these are costs to build the cars, not to run. Shit Ferrari's F1 team has a budget of $500million per season.

[TheStang00]

Originally Posted by longlivetheZ

~130K for the NASCAR cars as opposed to the ~400K+ for the F1 type car, according to the "Modern Marvels" show on TLC if I remember correctly. Please...this is again NOT my point.






Bull. I raise a big fat BS flag to that one. You're telling me that a bigger, heavier, less aerodynamic car with less power will go faster for a longer period of time than a car that's (way) more powerful (by at least 200 hp...if not way more), (way) lighter (by about half), and more aerodynamic...right...I wouldn't bet the farm on that one, chief. But...yet AGAIN...this is not even CLOSE to my point. You seem to be trying to prove to me that the NASCAR cars are faster. Just not true, man. My point is why is this so popular.




No, I never have, but what does this REALLY have to do with what I said? They sound very similar...a 4.6L Mustang, for instance and a 5.7(or whatever) Camaro...they both are all gurgly and all...take the exhaust and the cat off of these cars (or something in the middle at least) and, when reved to beyond 8K rpm, it would sound about the same...you can't argue that. You get my point? This was just a slight side note anyway...not even important...just forget it.

ok first off... you know F1 cars cost more than that, dont even try it i know it too.

and obviously since you dont know, F1 cars and indy cars actually have quite a lot of drag, nascars dont. so the top speed potential is not BS. when a champ car at 200mph lets off the throtle it slows down as fast as an average street car with full brakes applied.

as far as sound goes, you obviously dont get it. its not a gurgoly sound like a 4.6 mustang or a 5.7 camaro, its not even close to the same sound. it isnt a rumbling sound. it sounds more like explosions. its massively loud and sounds meaner than shit. you cant really understand until you hear it at WOT. or even at idle for that matter. tv doesnt do it justice.

and finally since you keep saying this stuff isnt what your getting after, maybe you should just go back and read our posts, we posted plenty of info on why its so popular.

[BullShifter]

Stang Ferrari says it spends about $14million per car to build, obviously the slower teams spend less but count on spending AT LEAST $5million for a back of the pack car.

I agree stang, NASCAR cup engines sound nothing like a mustang or a camaro, not even close. TV doesn't do any racing justice.

Since Z wants answers why NASCAR is so popular instead of corrections on his INCORRECT information here's a few more.

American Drivers

American Sponsors

American Manufactors(Toyota is in trucks and soon to be Busch & Cup) - even though they are the same except for a few stickers and a front grill.

Drivers are able to communicate with the public unlike F1 drivers

-Nothing beats NHRA races EVERY ticket is a pit pass being able to stand 3' away from a pit such as John Force. Nothing like standing there when they start that bad boy up.

43 cars running inches apart for 500miles

Unbeatable coverage of NASCAR - too much in my opinion

Every race in the USA - 1 busch race in mexico

IRL or Champ Car will never come close to being the most popular due to their competing ways. usually IRL Fans hate CCWS and CCWS fans hate IRL, personally I like both but more of a IRL fan.

F1 has one race in the USA and this years was an absolute JOKE, glad i wasn't there this year.

F1 has NOT ONE american driver, they have Scott Speed an american test driver - big deal

If you want more answers I suggest you ask your same question over at www.speedtv.com on their forum.

I think the Grand Am Series Daytona Prototypes will soon be USA's #1 road racing series.

Again I'll say NO WAY IN HELL does a F1 car average 200+mph on a road course, that's the Average top speed of all tracks. possibly AVG. speed of 200KPH which is 124mph. I would love to see a link of where you found 200+MPH average speed. It's just not possible unless F1 runs an oval track but they dont seeing that they don't have an aerodynamic package. Just look at the aerodynamics on a IRL car going from Oval to Road courses they look nothing alike.

[longlivetheZ]

I just watched the Modern Marvels on race cars and the dude on there said it costs around 700,000 for each F1 car when there's a motor in it. He also said it costs around 4000 just to hit the track.

Alright, man. This wasn't even my point, but still...

Ok...now...looooooook at the results...it says "AVERAGE SPEED"...not "AVERAGE TOP SPEED"...that's a cop out anyway. Notice that the highest one is nearly 223 mph.

Now...looooooook at the track...looks like a road course to me.

The whole point of this thread was to try to make some sense of why this is so popular...and I did...*I* still would rather watch WRC or F1 races than NASCAR, but hey...I'm a car guy...I'll watch just about anything with wheels and an engine...I don't care...it drives my girlfriend nuts, too. Oh well. I've loved cars my whole life. Probably always will.

I was NOT coming here to argue about the potential of NASCARS or how much an F1 car costs or whatever. I KNOW what they cost and I have a good idea of the potential of the NASCARS. None of this was the point.

Thanks all for the chat. I'm out.

Long live the Z.

[TheStang00]

but the problem is you obviously didnt know much about the potential of nascars and the cost of F1 cars... and a lot of other things