Ultimate Celica: 2ZZ-GE or 3S-GTE?

[Morpheus XIII]

Many of you have seen shots of the intriguing 'Ultimate Celica' gracing the covers of magazines over the past year. Created by various Toyota affiliates, including TRD and Rod Millen, this car is said to be the best of the best, when it comes to company modded Celicas. It's no wonder, with half a grand of horsepower sent to all 4 wheels (497 hp @ 8000rpm; 345 lb-ft @ 5500rpm). Not only does it fly like a champ car, but it sure looks like one too. The intricate blend of street car/CART of the front clip is undoubtedly one of a kind.

Appearances and numbers aside, I ask you to take a deeper look into the wondrous machine. Yes, it has the all wheel-drivetrain from the older Celica GT4/all-trac models. Therefore, it has the same 3S-GTE, but with heavy modifications. Toyota has spent a great deal of time developing the 2ZZ-GE which powers the newer production Celica GTSs, but in this case, all that is turned aside in favor of old news.

Now, was it the right step for these well funded companies to pop in a tried and tested engine instead of attempting to unleash undiscovered power from a new 'techier' one? Everyone already knows that the 3S-GTE's nice iron block can put up with intense forced induction. No one knows much about the 2ZZ-GE. Why didn't they try to work with fresh meat instead of giving us the same old (heavy emphasis on the 'old') meal? With an aluminum block, VVTL-i, and a 6-speed rowboat, there MUST be something TRD and Rod Millen can do to find added power--with or without a turbo.

What do you guys think? Right or wrong move on the step backwards?

[Morpheus XIII]

Food for thought: Is it just me, or does anyone else think that this masterpiece Celica seems like a miniature Toyota GT-ONE? Perhaps the vertical wedge headlights came off the GT-ONE and found its way into the production office on Calty's new Celica. Or perhaps vice versa. This aspect combined with the CART bumper, fender fattening, and rear spoiler make it seem even more like a mini-GT-ONE.

A rear view:

[Morpheus XIII]

The shot from this angle really shows the emphasis on the fender flarings:

[Morpheus XIII]

As does this one. Take note of the brake rotor engraved with Toyota's logo. Superb:

[Morpheus XIII]

With the exception of highly-supportive seats and an integrated roll cage, the interior doesn't show much change--signifying the purpose of this car is to tear up roads, not sit in shows. (Unfortunately, it is. )

[Morpheus XIII]

This parting shot shows the major definition of the reshaped front bumper and the swept angle of the rear spoiler that flows with the rest of the car.

[Jay!]

Maybe they used the old drivetrain because they wanted it ready to go so darn fast. I remember this car was on the show circuit right after the regular street "Next Celica" debuted. Perhaps performance development for the new engine wasn't as swift as they expected, and they had deadlines to meet in getting something to wave around at the car shows. Now that it's out and, well, good, maybe what they can do with the new engine pales in comparison.

Sorry, man, I don't get the GT-One vibe from it. I do like what they did with the CARTish front clip, but I probably wouldn't buy it by itself.

I can't remember now, was that car at the L.A. Auto Show last January? I think I saw it, but now I'm not sure. I remember a regular version, a race-prepped version (I remember the race version in particular because I was impressed by the fake-out headlight decals ) and one other. Was that it?

[Morpheus XIII]

Yeah, it was at the Greater Los Angeles Auto Show. Can anyone answer a question for me? Why do you suppose L.A.'s show comes at almost the exact same time of Detroit's show? All the really good stuff, particularily concept vehicles and production debuts, end up there and we miss out. Why not have it 6 months later? Maybe it's the timing of the new year, and therefore the launch of new releases that forces both shows to open in the same month. Maybe they have an agreement to keep the Detroit one larger since that is where American automotive roots lie. Whatever the case, the organizers should keep in mind that Los Angeles was MADE for cars, and holds a huge number of car consumers in the U.S.

You know, I take back some of the stuff I said about the Ultimate Celica appearance. Automotive appeal is ever-changing and requires continuous acquired tastes. The way most odd cars look eventually grow on you, but as time progresses, I seem to grow away from the Ultimate Celica. Perhaps it was interesting at first, since the design was one of a kind, but now I'm getting sort of grossed out by the excessive sheetmetal treatment. But I still think that the headlights remind me of those from the GT-ONE. Of course, all similarity ends there.

[Morpheus XIII]

Below: OK, so they are not exactly replicas, but the GT-ONE's fender+headlight shape kind of reproduces the Celica's vertical light. Of course, Toyota doesn't have a real universal corporate design, as opposed to the relationships between the LMPs and production cars of Nissan, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Cadillac, etc.

[Moppie]

Prehaps they used the old drive train becuase building a new custom one just for a one off show cars would be a little on the expensive side?
Or is this more than just a rather flashy show car, and is actualy intended for production?

[Morpheus XIII]

That would be interesting. If it were produced, then there would be one too many Celica roosters in the hen-house. I don't know about other countries, but the U.S. already has the Celica "Action Package". Plus, where would the front license plate go?!!! Hahaha...

If anything, I hope the Celica TRD Sports M makes it into international production. The numerous subtle changes all add up to make an all around better car.

[phaqgm]

Originally posted by Moppie
Prehaps they used the old drive train becuase building a new custom one just for a one off show cars would be a little on the expensive side?
Or is this more than just a rather flashy show car, and is actualy intended for production?

I don't think that this was the case? They spent half a million dollars building this car as it is! I think they just went this route cause they already had all of the parts for the 3S-GTE to EASILY make the 500 hp target.

I agree with Morpheus, I think that "they" should've used production engine/drivetrain layout to build the car. This way they could've found the weak points, and improved on them for the aftermarket (TRD).

Right now Toyota has basically left it to "other" aftermarket companies to devolp parts for this wonderfuls sport compact. I am in the process of devolping a bolt-on exhaust (yes another one) and a header for this car as we speak. The car definately has a lot of potentional. I am now running consistant 14.6's in the 1/4 mile with just intake and exhaust.


Tim

[Morpheus XIII]

Well said. Perhaps if they used the production engine, we would be seeing more parts for the new Celicas by now.

phaqgm, what do you think of the reversed engine design? I like the fact that the exhaust manifold is on the firewall side while the intake manifold is right behind the front bumper. Why didn't designers think of this sooner for transverse front-mounted 4-cylinder cars? Its makes everything flow so much smoother since fresh cold air can come right in (from the Celica's funky little center nostril), and the waste fumes can go straight out from behind the engine to the exhaust system. Plus, the functional (yes, Mustang lovers, theres a real vent there) hood scoop can channel cool air to those hot headers, thereby keeping the temperature down in the small engine bay.

I see that the new Integra/RS-X is using the exact same layout for the engine. Damn, these two cars are so similar. Many are immediately shutting out the GT-S simply because the Type-S has about 20 more horsepower on the Toyota, but they shouldn't forget that the Honda motor is still 200ccs larger. I'm sure if someone got around to stroking the 2ZZ-GE to match up, it would end up a step ahead.

[Moppie]

There have been Renult and Fiats with the Intake at the frount and Exhaust at the back for some time, but they often have trouble with heat from the exhuast manifold making the cabin to hot, or messing with fuel and electrical lines running through the firewall. There's also the problem of the exhaust making a sharp bend to get away from the egine. If the exhuast is in the frount (ala Mini) the heat is disipated safely into the incoming airflow, and the bend under the frount of the motor donst have to be as sharp.
There are other factors, such as tradition, the old way worked so why bother changing it? I cant see any real advantages, other than easier access to the intake side of the engine for servicing.

Remember that the Celica was released while Honda still had the B18C engine, with 195hp in the Type-R teg, and this is the car it was pitched against. Similar hp numbers, but the Celica engine lacked in refinment, the High lift cam engagement point was a little high creating a good flat spot in the middle, and the gear ratios arn't that well matched, as a result the Honda engine is better. However remember that Honda have been playing with thier VTEC technology for nearly 20yrs, and have been making production engines in cars for over 11 years, thats quite a leap on Toyota in terms of experiance. Give Toyota another 2-3yrs though and they will be as good as the Honda engines, to the point that the two will be inseperable in terms of comparison.
The mighty B16a is possibly one of the greatest engines to come out of Japan in production trim, but the 4agze is in my mind the best engine to ever come out of Japan, it is just so open and friendly to tuning.

[phaqgm]

Originally posted by Moppie
There have been Renult and Fiats with the Intake at the frount and Exhaust at the back for some time, but they often have trouble with heat from the exhuast manifold making the cabin to hot, or messing with fuel and electrical lines running through the firewall. There's also the problem of the exhaust making a sharp bend to get away from the egine. If the exhuast is in the frount (ala Mini) the heat is disipated safely into the incoming airflow, and the bend under the frount of the motor donst have to be as sharp.
There are other factors, such as tradition, the old way worked so why bother changing it? I cant see any real advantages, other than easier access to the intake side of the engine for servicing.

Remember that the Celica was released while Honda still had the B18C engine, with 195hp in the Type-R teg, and this is the car it was pitched against. Similar hp numbers, but the Celica engine lacked in refinment, the High lift cam engagement point was a little high creating a good flat spot in the middle, and the gear ratios arn't that well matched, as a result the Honda engine is better. However remember that Honda have been playing with thier VTEC technology for nearly 20yrs, and have been making production engines in cars for over 11 years, thats quite a leap on Toyota in terms of experiance. Give Toyota another 2-3yrs though and they will be as good as the Honda engines, to the point that the two will be inseperable in terms of comparison.
The mighty B16a is possibly one of the greatest engines to come out of Japan in production trim, but the 4agze is in my mind the best engine to ever come out of Japan, it is just so open and friendly to tuning.

I am a little confused how you can say that the Honda engine is better based off of the transmission and layout? That does not make the engine. The engine makes the engine. I can tell you from personal experience that I have NO problem keeping the car right in the power band! Have you ever driven a Celica GT-S, or are just going by what the magazines say?

I can tell you that with just two mods (intake, and exhaust) I can pull consistant 14.6's in the 1/4 mile. Do you see GS-R's doing that? No. The fact is you can't compare the GT-S to the Type-R. They are two completely different vehicles. The only thing that they match are drive train configuriations and that they are both sport compacts. But the similarities stop there. The Type-R is a hand built, tweaked, limited production vehicle. The GT-S is not hand built, and is made for the masses.

The fact that EVERYONE must compare the GT-S with the Type-R tells me that Toyota did something right. Don't you think?

Have you ever seen the under body of a Celica? Did you know that the GT-S has 2.5 inch exhaust, and is quite free flowing (except for the 2 cats). Heat really isn't an issue in the Celica. The hood scoop on the car is functional. It actually pulls the heat away from the firewall. I think the reall reason that the engine has gotten turned around is for emission purposes. It is easier to get the first cat closer to the header (yes the GT-S has a factory header, not exhaust manifold). Which means the catalytic converter fires off faster.

Click here to see what happens to the flat spot when you have an aftermarket exhaust.