So much money...

[tenguzero]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050908/pl_nm/congress_dc

New Orleans estimate: $150-200 billion
Iraq war: $300 billion and counting
National Debt approaching $8 Trillion http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
Plus healthcare, social security, immigration, and welfare programs all in bad shape. Who knows how much money needed to fix.


Where is all this money going to come from? Why are we so ridiculously deep in debt? How can we, as a country, EVER afford to balance this? It's like we're throwing around billions of dollars left and right, but we're getting no return on ANY of it! It's like the only answer this country has to resolve debt is throw money at it. Meanwhile, the economy is trying to pick back up, but the people don't really have the money to drive it properly -- everyone I know does This on credit, or That on a loan, with a mortgage payment here and a car payment there. Meanwhile paychecks aren't keeping up to inflation (and really haven't been for decades now) yet the cost of everything continues to rise exponentially. The continued promise of tax cuts are nice and all, but that's certainly not going to HELP the situation at all.

I'm just so utterly awestruck by how deep in the red everything is in the country, and I don't see how we can even begin to consider clawing our way out of it, unless priorities change, and change fast.

The American dream is still there for those who want to strive for it, but they're gonna have to be ready to put it on credit. With a skyrocketting interest rate. And no solid promise that the very item they've taken out such a grand loan for will even be there for them tomorrow.

I hate gloom-and-doom scenarios as much as the next person, but I keep getting this feeling like our country is slowly sinking, and the only answer our leaders have is to keep bailing the water back out with buckets, but that's just costing us valuable resources. It almost feels like we're headed for a revolution, making the only answer to the problem a complete abandoning of the boat, and building a new one. It seems any person that is semi intelligent and not an ignorant Rush Limbaugh-type sees the writing on the wall -- I mean, it would be one thing if the country was building on a strong religious base, or a strong conservative base, or a strong liberal base, or a strong sciences/technology base, or something. But we're not really strong in ANY direction. I know this because everyone has a major gripe, and it's not just a "people bitching" kind of thing, it's always a fundamental concern. Conservative's concerned with immigration and spending pitfalls, liberals concerned with administrative and support-system downfalls, religious people concerned with moral and ethical quagmires, the elderly concerned with post-retirement aid and medical systems, private-sector employees worried about increasingly questionable healthcare practices, the youth worried about rising tuition costs and if they'll even have anything when THEY get to retirement. The list goes on -- and most people fit under SEVERAL of these catagories.

What do WE as a COUNTRY have right now to show for all our debt, and lengthening workweeks, and greater personal sacrifices (of both our personal time and our job benefits) and foreign policies, keeping more informed on the issues, and rights movements, and everything else the citizens of this country bust our asses for day in and day out? What do we have to show for it? A continuing and increasingly disputed war, so much debt we aren't even thinking twice about throwing more money at it (not that our currency's really worth a damn in the international markets right now anyways) local, state, and federal agencies in a mess, and a lot of people concerned about the whole thing.

[T4 Primera]

In the business world there is a term "poison pill." When a corporation is faced with a hostile takeover, one tactic used is to create a financial situation that would increase the takeover cost and leave the hostile corporation in an untenable situation if they succeed in the acquisition.

Bush swallowed the international version of it on behalf of the US years ago.

The Poison Pill

[fredjacksonsan]

The US doesn't have an income problem, it has a spending problem.

It's like a kid with a credit card, you think you have all this money, when actually each time you use it you're taking out another loan.

The US is simply spending money that does not exist. I think that currently the debt is around $20K for each person in the country.

There needs to be some common sense in government. I'm now waiting for the computer to explode since those two words were used in the same sentence.


It should be law that we have a balanced budget. Period. And that some of that budget goes to removing debt.

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by fredjacksonsan

The US doesn't have an income problem, it has a spending problem.

Hammer, meet nail. That is exactly the problem. To many people with their hands out waiting for the government to give them something. To many people spending past their means just so they can keep up with the Jone's.

It should be law that we have a balanced budget. Period. And that some of that budget goes to removing debt.

That would be a bad law. What they need is a smart fiscal policy. There are times when going into debt is needed (I did it to buy my houses). The problem is that the more you give, the more people want and our politicians don't have the courage to say "NO".

[fredjacksonsan]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

That would be a bad law. What they need is a smart fiscal policy. There are times when going into debt is needed (I did it to buy my houses). The problem is that the more you give, the more people want and our politicians don't have the courage to say "NO".

Good point; however when you have a government that has already purchased everything they need, and spend 400 million or so per year to maintain the military, why would they need to go further into debt?

In a hypothetical situation, say all US military forces were brought back to the US. We sell all overseas bases and use the military as a defense force only.

Aside from a natural disaster, how would the US need to borrow money in that case?

And in buying a house, yes you go into debt. But you do it with an eye for the future and by carefully planning your expenses. I'm sure the house you bought wasn't twice as expensive as you could afford, and I'm sure you didn't buy three times as many as you actually needed.

[YogsVR4]

True enough. My house analogy was only in the context of going into debt for a specific purpose and not a equivelence with government debt spending.

The real sad part is that the politicians run on the money they bring to their constituents or deriding their opposition for cuts (which we all know is actually a reduction in the amount of the increase, not an actual cut). And, the bulk of voters continue to elect the free spenders.

That leaves the workers holding the bag. Income taxes. Consumers are holding the bag next via sales tax and business tax (remember who pays the business). To the tune of 2 trillion dollars and politicians still whine that there is not enough and we need to tax 'so and so' more.

[fredjacksonsan]

Yup. Unfortunately, we pay, they play.

[ifidie2nite]

The hell? 8 Trillion? When'd that happen? Last I knew it was a little less than $400 billion?

[T4 Primera]

Originally Posted by ifidie2nite

The hell? 8 Trillion? When'd that happen? Last I knew it was a little less than $400 billion?

http://www.uwsa.com/uwsa-usdebt.html

Sometimes it is increasing, sometimes decreasing, but the overall trend seems to be increasing.

[ifidie2nite]

Originally Posted by T4 Primera

http://www.uwsa.com/uwsa-usdebt.html

Sometimes it is increasing, sometimes decreasing, but the overall trend seems to be increasing.

God damn. This worries me because isn't the value of the dollar based on that?

[ct91rs]

Originally Posted by ifidie2nite

God damn. This worries me because isn't the value of the dollar based on that?

In part. The dollar is no longer backed by the gold standard, hasn't been for a long time. Confidence in the dollar gives it value. The part about the debt that is most frightening, is the fact that it is being financed increasingly by foreign nations (chiefly China). In the not so distant past, our national debt was paid for mainly by US entities, so the money owed was at least owed to ourselves. But China has been buying much of our debt in the last 5-10 years, and now we owe the Chinease. So what happens when they call in their loans? We give them GE, or Intel.

What I find funny is that our President claims to be a conservative. I'll give the expense of his wars and his fight against terrorism (funny how unrelated that is to IRAQ, but I digress). Even if you consider the expenditures for those campaigns necessary, how do you promote tax cuts? How in the hell does that square? You want to cut taxes George? Fine, get Congress to pass a reasonable spending bill without appropriating extra billions, and that can be done. But if we're in a time of war, and sacrifices must be made, don't saddle my kids with today's problems so your friends can keep more or their money. That is terrible fiscal policy, and a slap in the face of your presumed conservative ideology.

[YogsVR4]

Bush is not a fiscal conservative - when it comes to spending, he's a wimp. The congress is where the real problems are. They keep passing spending measures that there is no money for. I'm tired of saddling the workers with a higher and higher tax load. The free spenders in Congress need to go.

[fredjacksonsan]

It will take a concerted effort by all government powers-that-be to take care of the debt. You can place the blame on one or the other, but let's face it, all the high ranking people have had a hand in it, one way or the other.

[T4 Primera]

I'd like to see people asking the question, where did all that money go? In whose bank accounts does it now reside? What goods or services did they provide in return?

[fredjacksonsan]

It was squandered by the government. Paying for $600. toilet seats and boxes full of $50 wrenches for obsolete parts (etc etc)