Give me a break...

[tenguzero]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050825/ts_nm/mideast_dc

You know, try as hard as I might, I just can't hear anything other than "Blah, blah, blah I'm a religious-extremist country with no apparent agenda or larger designs beyond my pathetic bickering with my neighbor" coming from either the Palestinians or the Israelis. How ignorant as a COUNTRY do you have to be to carry on a 4 decades-old war over some prophesized "holy place"? Alongside the thread about that Robertson loser and his comments about Venezuela, this is yet one more indicator that religious extremism comes in all sorts of forms, far beyond the whole "evil Islamic empire" thing all these idiot talking heads and ignorant talk show hosts are spewing.

I've included a brief scenario here for you, to help distill this into an applicable example:


-Israel: "Based on circumstantial evidence and our own claims, we killed these 5 people because they were blah blah blah"

-Palestine: "Because of your militaristic policies and obviously blinding hate for us, we see no choice but to promote our own ignorant and self-absorbed agenda and direct towards you some rockets, a few suicide bombers, a couple exploding buses, etc."

-Israel: "Since obviously our religion is better than yours, we're going to retaliate in the name of our hording this here claimed holy land, and kill a few more of your people!"

-Palestine: "No, OUR religion is the better one, and obviously thereby justifies our claims to the bogarting of the 'holy land.' Now, eat bomb-laden panel truck!"

-Israel: "No, WE have claim to this land!"

-Palestine: "NO, WE DO!"

-Israel: "NO, WE DO!"

-Etc., etc.

Extrapolate out to a 40+ year time frame, and you've pretty much got the jist of the ignorance that is the Israel-Palestine fiasco. Why the U.S. is even involved with these shmucks is beyond me, but then again there's a lot of dumb stuff we seem to feel it is our place to be involved in. This being said, the following is my suggestion to the Israelis/Palistinians (whom I shall now refer to as Israelistine in the manner of notoriously conflicting celebrity "relationships" in Hollywood -- think Bennifer.)

And...... (drumroll please)
...

...

...

WHY DON'T BOTH OF YOU SHUT THE HELL UP AND TRY SHARING!? You're both obviously doing a thorough disservice to your respected propag... er belief systems anyways, and your mutual ignorance is obviously far greater than can be overcome by some half-hearted pull-out/reoccupation operation. So, why don't you save your children a LOT of pain and frustration when they grow up, and bury the damn hatchet -- the children sure as hell seem willing to. And while you guys are ironing out your difficulties, we (the U.S.) will just take to the quiet task of sashaying our asses the hell out of there because maybe, just maybe, it isn't as important as our government thinks to have some sort of democratic military strike-point conveniently available anywhere in the world

[fredjacksonsan]

Very well put.

Why can't they put aside their differences? Because they're a bunch of -racist remarks not removed by mods-.


It goes back to 1945-46, when Israel was carved out of the middle east. There has been nothing but turmoil since then. It was like throwing a match in a pool of gasoline. (pun intended)

They should grow up and stop acting like a bunch of children fighting over a toy. Learn to share.

[Kurtdg19]

What do I say? Blame it on Hitler.

As long as I'm not bothered: I say let them kill themselves until there are all six feet under. Then we can go over there and take their oil ....*sarcasm*

[YogsVR4]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. They should either clamp down on their own people to have order or have a knock-down drag-out winner-take-all war and get it over with. Each side spends to much time blaming the other while not doing enough to restrain their own.

[Mustangman25]

If you look at the situation, at least in my opinion, the two sides have tried to make peace and settle their differences, but it's the extremist wackos on both sides that really ruin any chance of peace...I was glad to hear that some Palestinian extremist movement pledged to not attack anyone or anything during the pullout from Gaza.

[bayouwolf]

Its hard to take sides on this one. You gotta wonder what the ramifications would be of either side winning...
I agree, they should grow up and share.

[Steel]

Originally Posted by bayouwolf

Its hard to take sides on this one. You gotta wonder what the ramifications would be of either side winning...
I agree, they should grow up and share.

Sad part is, you know it's NEVER going to happen.

[Ace$nyper]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

I've said it before and I'll say it again. They should either clamp down on their own people to have order or have a knock-down drag-out winner-take-all war and get it over with. Each side spends to much time blaming the other while not doing enough to restrain their own.

I agree whole heartedly.

You can't expect the others to behave when as you ask for peace someone in the back round blows up a mall.

[tenguzero]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050828/wl_nm/mideast_dc

...blah blah blah we're ignorant and the only way we know how to solve our problem is through pissy acts of retaliation blah blah...

[ifidie2nite]

Originally Posted by tenguzero

-Palestine: "No, OUR religion is the better one, and obviously thereby justifies our claims to the bogarting of the 'holy land.' Now, eat bomb-laden panel truck!"

-Israel: "No, WE have claim to this land!"

-Palestine: "NO, WE DO!"

-Israel: "NO, WE DO!"

-Etc., etc.

You're a retard .

But seriously. I believe we should go with who had it last before the independent Israeli state and everything. Back when the Romans were in the area, that land called Palestine was majorly Israeli. But after a few insurgencies, the Israelis were kicked out or fled. Thus gave way for the Philistines (Palestinians) to take their land. So rightfully, and with no thanks to the Romans, that is Israeli land and should be governed so.

[carrrnuttt]

Originally Posted by ifidie2nite

You're a retard .

But seriously. I believe we should go with who had it last before the independent Israeli state and everything. Back when the Romans were in the area, that land called Palestine was majorly Israeli. But after a few insurgencies, the Israelis were kicked out or fled. Thus gave way for the Philistines (Palestinians) to take their land. So rightfully, and with no thanks to the Romans, that is Israeli land and should be governed so.

I take it you're Jewish?

Dude. The land called America used to be majorly groups of native tribes now known only as "Native Americans", or "Indians". So they should govern the U.S. right?

You're talking about shit BACK IN THE ROMAN DAYS.

Are you telling me then, that the "heathen Philistines" (as I'm sure you'd say), have been living in that area since then?

You know what? Since then, new countries have popped-up, and other countries went away, or absorbed/conquered by other nations.

Can you say "get the fuck over it"?

Who's retarded again?

[ifidie2nite]

Originally Posted by carrrnuttt

I take it you're Jewish?

Dude. The land called America used to be majorly groups of native tribes now known only as "Native Americans", or "Indians". So they should govern the U.S. right?

You're talking about shit BACK IN THE ROMAN DAYS.

Are you telling me then, that the "heathen Philistines" (as I'm sure you'd say), have been living in that area since then?

You know what? Since then, new countries have popped-up, and other countries went away, or absorbed/conquered by other nations.

Can you say "get the fuck over it"?

Who's retarded again?

Jewish? No. Just educated .

Actually yes the "heathen philistines" as you say have been there and were before the jews. But the fact is most of them left or were assimilated. As far as the native american thing goes, theyre severely outnumbered and would stand no political chance of retaking the land, unlike in the Israeli-Palestinian situation, where the greater-in-numbers Israelis have the advantage.

I have no idea what you mean by talking shit about the roman days so I'll assume you know that the romans had alot to do with the dictation of the area.

These new "countries" you say popped up, didn't. They were tribes who either expanded, defeated other tribes, etc, and then grew into nations with size and population.

"Get the fuck over it" Yes, exactly.

[carrrnuttt]

Son, don't throw around the word "educated"...'tis not a word taken lightly - especially in self-description.

Fact of the matter is, that strip was once wholly-owned by the Ottoman empire. Yes, the Arab Ottoman empire, that eventually reduced in size, and has coalesced into what is now known as Turkey.

Get this: THERE WAS NO ISRAEL, until after the Arab-Israeli war of 1948.

Even then, Gaza was won by the Egyptian government.

Most of the people living there are Palestinian refugees, who became that way, because of the Israeli government, who felt it was their place, to oppress the Palestinian civilians.

This started the outgrowth of terrorism, which eventually included the US as it's primary target, mainly because of its support of Israel - with the pressure/backing of lots of Jewish-American money.

Either way, historical, or religious the reason may be for all the killing and hate, the point of the thread is: IT'S ALL SO GODDAMNED STUPID.

You might say that Israel is more powerful in that area, and that is mostly true, when compared to the Palestinian population, but when they are being backed with Royal Saudi money, I'd call it a wash.

I'm no big fan of the Soviet Union, but they can take an example of two somewhat balanced powers, that are CIVILIZED, fighting over the same land/area, when you consider the dispute over the Bering Strait the US had with the then USSR, and not to mention the close threat that the USSR kept in power, in Cuba. It was not pretty all the time, but it's roses compared to the crap that is going on in Gaza.

[Cbass]

Tenguezero, your understanding of and insight astounds me.

To start with, the Palestinians have been there longer than the Jews, because they were there before there WERE Jews.

The Jews, because their religion tells them they do, believe the have claim to that land. Actually, they believe they have claim to everything to the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in Iraq, because their religion says that God gave that land to them.

Before Israel became a country, a group called Zionists(because they believe in the concept of Israel as a homeland stretching from the Mediterrenean to the Euphrates), were committing terrorist acts against the colonial powers. When Israel became a country, those extremist zealots became the leaders of the country, like Ben Gurion. As Jewish immigrants flooded into the region, partisan warfare errupted between Arabs and Jews, which culminated in teh Arab-Israeli war, with Arab nations sending regular troops to fight the growing Jewish insurgency in what was then Palestine.

When Israel did become a country, and it was decided that it would be a democracy, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who's ancestors had liven in that land since before history were kicked out, because if they stayed, they would be able to vote the Jewish state out of existence. Millions of political refugees expelled, not because they had done anything, but because they COULD exercise their RIGHTS in a democracy. If that doesn't burn up the Arabs inside, there isn't much that can. The kind of sentiment "Democracy is for us, not for you, so get out".

Israel became a country through military force, declaring themselves a state, and by conquering the surrounding area, and displacing the residents.

The Gaza strip and the West Bank were left somewhat ambiguously occupied by the Arab armies, until 1967 when they were invaded by Israel.

In 1956, Israel invaded Egypt, claiming they were trying to stop attacks on Israeli civilians, although they actually wanted to enforce Israeli shipping through the Strait of Tiran.

In 1967, Israel invaded Egypt again, this time claiming Egyptian aggression, misquoting Egyptian president Nasser when he said Egypt would destroy Israel if Israel embarks on aggression against Egypt or Syria. Israel bombed the Egyptian air force on the ground, and invaded the Gaza strip and the Sinai peninsula. Jordan and Syria retaliated, although they did not invade Israel, and Israel invaded the West Bank and the Golan Heights. Israel has occupied these territories since that war, nearly 40 years ago. The refugees are still living in camps, Israel will not integrate them into the population.

Israel invaded Lebanon TWICE, the second time intervening in a civil war, claiming to be fighting terrorism, of course.

You can see how there might be a little bit of tension in the region, and a lot of anger among the Palestinians.

[tenguzero]

The fact is, there is no place in this world anymore for the kind of childish behavior displayed by both parties. The Middle East is, and almost always has been, a VERY disputed place. It posesses numerous major waterway choke points, it's a melting pot for three major religions of the world, it has the majority of easily accessible oil fields (with Saudi Arabia providing an estimated 25% of the world's oil production) and it's living proof of what happens when Imperial powers are given a knife and the go-ahead to divide things up. Which is all the more reason why countries like Israel and Palestine really need to pick themselves up out of the bullshit they've dug themselves into, and move on -- if only to show the world that divisions based on religion or aggression or the whim of world powers or whatever doesn't fly with them. But No, instead they choose to spend their lives living in a constant military/terrorist state, the victims of their own ignorant, bigoted, self-fulfilling chaos-prophecy. I don't give a crap what happened to put them at odds 40 years ago, and frankly, I don't think they should either. Reasonable people face their problems and deal with them in an amiable way. Children, the mal-adjusted, and the ignorant take it to blows.