Building '73 400

[raceguy2000]

Hi gang-

Name's Steve, new to the forum. Hope you all can help. 2 yrs ago i bought my wife a 1981 t/a as a x-mas gift. It needed extensive work. now it is time to spend money. I have aquired a 1973 400 with Ram air III heads. Then engine is on a stand, heads are off at machine shop. I want to have her (the wife no the car) have it be a bit better than stock, but i am unsure what to use as far as cam, intake, carb, headers, ect. i know i need new hydralic lifters and rods, but i dont know brands from Adam. I don't want her to have so much power she's afraid of the thing, but enough to smoke the s--- out of the tires in front of the neighbors. any sugjestions are aprecciated. I should say my tech. knowledge is limited, but i'm learning. thanks again !

[LowETz]

Steve-
Not real up on third gen stuff but if you follow this link, and browse the sub forums you may be able to find some answers as to what you're looking for in the way of mods for that motor.

http://thirdgen.org/techbb2/

Good luck!

[volkerc]

Originally Posted by raceguy2000

Hi gang-

Name's Steve, new to the forum. Hope you all can help. 2 yrs ago i bought my wife a 1981 t/a as a x-mas gift. It needed extensive work. now it is time to spend money. I have aquired a 1973 400 with Ram air III heads. Then engine is on a stand, heads are off at machine shop. I want to have her (the wife no the car) have it be a bit better than stock, but i am unsure what to use as far as cam, intake, carb, headers, ect. i know i need new hydralic lifters and rods, but i dont know brands from Adam. I don't want her to have so much power she's afraid of the thing, but enough to smoke the s--- out of the tires in front of the neighbors. any sugjestions are aprecciated. I should say my tech. knowledge is limited, but i'm learning. thanks again !

on a 400 you need a good 750 cfm carb, decent intakes are made by edelbrock. edelbrock performer is probably the most bought one.edelbrock performer rpm is a step up. crane makes some excellent cams. you can get copies of stock patterns including ram air.if you use a good cam, intake,carb headers you will achieve your goal. a not so expensive cam is the crane fireball line, they produce good power, a nice sound and are not that expensive. if money is not that important you can even step up to a hydraulic roller cam for those engines, which i did this time. i had a lot of fun with my previous flat tappet in a 350. for my 400 i chose a different setup. any questions let me know...

[MrPbody]

With all due respect to the previous posters, you NEED to get the book. Released last Summer, it contains CURRENT information on building Pontiacs.

"How to Build Max-performance Pontiac V8s" by Jim Hand, published by SA Designs under the Car Tech line.

You say you have a '73 400 with Ram Air III heads. Do you recall the casting number of the heads? I ask this as the name "Ram Air" is as abused as "3/4 cam" and "full race".
The advice on intakes is good. There are some pitfalls. Performer will make good low-end and mid-range, but leave you lacking above 5,000. In truth, the factory intakes from '68-'72 (for Q-Jet carbs) are as good or better than any of the "smaller" aftermarket intakes. Unlike the other GM engine families, Pontiac went the extra distance to design good manifolds, both intake and exhaust. If you are lucky enough to really have the RA III heads, is it possible you got the intake and exhaust with them?
You'll find the head casting number on the outside of the two center exhaust ports. True RA III heads were either 48 or 12, depending on which year. 48s are '69, and 12s are '70. There are no other Ram Air III engines. These engines were rated at 366 horsepower.
Also, to dispel a myth or two... The term "Ram Air Head" usually refers to Ram Air IV heads, not IIIs. The IVs have very large ROUND exhaust ports, unlike the other Pontiac heads (d-ports). Those are 722s or 614s. The numbers are on one end or the other, instead of the middle.
The Ram Air heads (both types) have small chambers (72 CCS, nominally). The other "round port" heads have large chambers (102 and up) for use on low compression 455s.
Check what you have. Let us know. Feel free to e-mail me directly (PM doesn't seem to work on my computer). [email protected]

Our shop builds performance engines of all descriptions, but the Pontiac is our personal favorite. After all, GTO didn't get it's reputation from losing... Welcome to the Pontiac family! (we're not a "crowd" like the Ford and Chevy guys)

[volkerc]

Originally Posted by MrPbody

With all due respect to the previous posters, you NEED to get the book. Released last Summer, it contains CURRENT information on building Pontiacs.

"How to Build Max-performance Pontiac V8s" by Jim Hand, published by SA Designs under the Car Tech line.

You say you have a '73 400 with Ram Air III heads. Do you recall the casting number of the heads? I ask this as the name "Ram Air" is as abused as "3/4 cam" and "full race".
The advice on intakes is good. There are some pitfalls. Performer will make good low-end and mid-range, but leave you lacking above 5,000. In truth, the factory intakes from '68-'72 (for Q-Jet carbs) are as good or better than any of the "smaller" aftermarket intakes. Unlike the other GM engine families, Pontiac went the extra distance to design good manifolds, both intake and exhaust. If you are lucky enough to really have the RA III heads, is it possible you got the intake and exhaust with them?
You'll find the head casting number on the outside of the two center exhaust ports. True RA III heads were either 48 or 12, depending on which year. 48s are '69, and 12s are '70. There are no other Ram Air III engines. These engines were rated at 366 horsepower.
Also, to dispel a myth or two... The term "Ram Air Head" usually refers to Ram Air IV heads, not IIIs. The IVs have very large ROUND exhaust ports, unlike the other Pontiac heads (d-ports). Those are 722s or 614s. The numbers are on one end or the other, instead of the middle.
The Ram Air heads (both types) have small chambers (72 CCS, nominally). The other "round port" heads have large chambers (102 and up) for use on low compression 455s.
Check what you have. Let us know. Feel free to e-mail me directly (PM doesn't seem to work on my computer). [email protected]

Our shop builds performance engines of all descriptions, but the Pontiac is our personal favorite. After all, GTO didn't get it's reputation from losing... Welcome to the Pontiac family! (we're not a "crowd" like the Ford and Chevy guys)

you know that,i know all that, but i think raceguy2000 should speak and let us know what he expects from the engine first, as well as the useage the car will see. with all respect, what good does it do him, if he builds an engine that goes past the 5000 rpm to produce all sorts of power, but he won't see that rpm range ever.let him speak first, see what he wants to build...
and yeah those factory intakes are great but rare as s*** also...
no offense to your post though...

[raceguy2000]

I dont see my wife getting this new toy of hers above 5k to awful much. like i said, smoke shows at the neighbors oughta do her. i may run it 1/4 mile just to see what it'll do. but stop light to stop light power...lots of torque....is what we're looking for. and from everything i've learned so far....the 400 is gonna build lots of that.

i will ck the heads when i get them back from the machine shop. the only #'s i see on the intake are 484282 stamped near the carb mount and E073 near the front.

as far as cams go...am i to understand that i want a bit more duration on both intake and exhast, but not a great deal of height?

steve

i need a cool catch phrase

[volkerc]

Originally Posted by raceguy2000

I dont see my wife getting this new toy of hers above 5k to awful much. like i said, smoke shows at the neighbors oughta do her. i may run it 1/4 mile just to see what it'll do. but stop light to stop light power...lots of torque....is what we're looking for. and from everything i've learned so far....the 400 is gonna build lots of that.

i will ck the heads when i get them back from the machine shop. the only #'s i see on the intake are 484282 stamped near the carb mount and E073 near the front.

as far as cams go...am i to understand that i want a bit more duration on both intake and exhast, but not a great deal of height?

steve

i need a cool catch phrase

i kinda thought you were looking for that type of performance. thats why i suggested the performer intakes. a cam with 216 duration at 0.50 with a lift of .454 intake and exhaust would work fine. you can step those numbers up a little if you like for a little extra performance, but don't go overboard if you want to keep the stock converter. check the crane fireball grinds come as a set with lifters and those are mild street cams. course you can buy from any manufacturer you like. if you don't have the above mentioned intakes that the other member mentioned, the regular performer intake will produce torque and power from the bottom up. the rpm performer will shift the power and torque curve a bit up.

[MrPbody]

The intakes I refer to are not rare. They are the average Q-Jet intake supplied from '67-'72. The '69-'72 are a bit more desired as they don't have the heat passages to the bottom of the carb. Those can be tapped and plugged, to prevent the fuel from boiling. The rare intakes are the Ram Air IV and 455 HO aluminum units. Good stuff, but obsolete. The Performer RPM refered to is superior in all areas of performance except hood clearance...
The casting date you supply indicates May 7, '73. This is an "EGR" intake, and not desired. It should have a large protrusion on the bottom, and uses the "pool" valley cover. It probably weighs over 60 lbs., too!
As for cams and other internals, get the book. It covers everything from a stock rebuild to a 600 horsepower street engine. It is NOT a race engine book. You will find many of the "old standbys" are woefully obsolete, and much more efficient performance is available for those that do the leg work. It's possible to get that T/A into the low 13s and still get upwards of 20 MPG.
The current thinking on camshsafts for Pontiacs includes Comp XE series, Crower factory-ish grinds, and Bullit cams. For your applicatioin, Comp XE262H is just about perfect. It offers great vacuum and response, a "hint" of a lope at 700 RPM, and will make power well past 5,000 (in a 400).
Avoid "single pattern" cams (intake and exhaust lift/duration the same). Rule of thumb is to have 6-8 more degrees (@.050) on the exhaust side.
Stock heads run out of flow just over .400" lift (all factory grinds for D-port heads featured no more than .407"). There's no need to raise the lift beyond .500". It simply adds strain to the valve train without adding any performance. We will typically add 10% to the max-flow lift point, to allow "mean lift" to get closer to the max-flow point.
We do not recommend "fast-bleed" lifters (Rhoads and Crane). They are a "patch" for a poor cam selection. Bigger is NOT better when it comes to street cams. They (the lifters) are also known for being very noisy and short-lifed.
Volkrec, the Fireball cams are NOT mild. They're actually pretty rowdy. Old-fashioned, too. It's not my intent to step on what you're saying, but the information you're providing is based more on hearsay and advertising than on experience (unless that experience is dated). This isn't a battle of "I know more than you do!". We're trying to get the guy down the right path so he won't be another "I told you so" when it comes to Pontiac performance.
Your comments on the Perform intake are right on the money. Since he has the "wrong" intake now, Performer would be the aftermarket intake of choice for his performance goals. But for the record, the ONLY advantage Performer has over the factory Q-Jet intakes is the weight. It does not perform any better, and not as well on the high-end.
PAX

[volkerc]

Originally Posted by MrPbody

The intakes I refer to are not rare. They are the average Q-Jet intake supplied from '67-'72. The '69-'72 are a bit more desired as they don't have the heat passages to the bottom of the carb. Those can be tapped and plugged, to prevent the fuel from boiling. The rare intakes are the Ram Air IV and 455 HO aluminum units. Good stuff, but obsolete. The Performer RPM refered to is superior in all areas of performance except hood clearance...
The casting date you supply indicates May 7, '73. This is an "EGR" intake, and not desired. It should have a large protrusion on the bottom, and uses the "pool" valley cover. It probably weighs over 60 lbs., too!
As for cams and other internals, get the book. It covers everything from a stock rebuild to a 600 horsepower street engine. It is NOT a race engine book. You will find many of the "old standbys" are woefully obsolete, and much more efficient performance is available for those that do the leg work. It's possible to get that T/A into the low 13s and still get upwards of 20 MPG.
The current thinking on camshsafts for Pontiacs includes Comp XE series, Crower factory-ish grinds, and Bullit cams. For your applicatioin, Comp XE262H is just about perfect. It offers great vacuum and response, a "hint" of a lope at 700 RPM, and will make power well past 5,000 (in a 400).
Avoid "single pattern" cams (intake and exhaust lift/duration the same). Rule of thumb is to have 6-8 more degrees (@.050) on the exhaust side.
Stock heads run out of flow just over .400" lift (all factory grinds for D-port heads featured no more than .407"). There's no need to raise the lift beyond .500". It simply adds strain to the valve train without adding any performance. We will typically add 10% to the max-flow lift point, to allow "mean lift" to get closer to the max-flow point.
We do not recommend "fast-bleed" lifters (Rhoads and Crane). They are a "patch" for a poor cam selection. Bigger is NOT better when it comes to street cams. They (the lifters) are also known for being very noisy and short-lifed.
Volkrec, the Fireball cams are NOT mild. They're actually pretty rowdy. Old-fashioned, too. It's not my intent to step on what you're saying, but the information you're providing is based more on hearsay and advertising than on experience (unless that experience is dated). This isn't a battle of "I know more than you do!". We're trying to get the guy down the right path so he won't be another "I told you so" when it comes to Pontiac performance.
Your comments on the Perform intake are right on the money. Since he has the "wrong" intake now, Performer would be the aftermarket intake of choice for his performance goals. But for the record, the ONLY advantage Performer has over the factory Q-Jet intakes is the weight. It does not perform any better, and not as well on the high-end.
PAX

nobody ever said it is about one knows more than the other. like i said, the other member needed to speak what he wanted, before we bombard him with all sorts of info. i respect your opinions and knowledge.and if you read my comments here closely you'll agree. as to your comment to the fireball cam i have to correct you a little, as I do know first hand what the results are. cause i ran one in my 350 engine and was very pleased with the results. but like i said he (the other member) can purchase what he wants, this was simply to give him an idea. and thats what the whole forum is about, get second opinions. listen to what members have to say here and build your own opinion. other than that i totally agree on everything else you said. it sounds like as if the engine to be build is being build on a budget (and who does not follow that path...)and i think we gave him good ideas for a starting point.
as far as the intakes were concerned i thought you meant the aluminum intakes. i saw those go for $600 and more on ebay, thats why i would not buy them.and i would not use the iron intakes on any of my engines, but that is just me, cause my eyes like to see something nice also. no doubt pontiac build excellent engines, i fully stand behind those. Mickey Thompson could have used Chevy engines, but he decided to put 4 Pontiac engines into his Challenger I. that must have had a reason also....

why pontiac engines are superior:
http://ourworld.cs.com/gaotman428/pontiacengines.htm

[raceguy2000]

Boys now play nice. I guaged the end play of my crank tonight. haynes manual says .03 to .09 and it came in .03..maybe .035. my connecting rods side clearance s/b .012 to .017. it was more like .019....maybe more in some cases. what does this mean to me as far as proper repair? can my local machine shop fix this with a crank turn and new bearings, or do i need new rods?

and yeah the intake is headed for dumpster...its not quite 60lbs but close. a friend recommended the edlebrock preformer with their carb as well...what do you all think?

[raceguy2000]

oh ...yeah....the performer intake....will it fit under the shaker hood?

[volkerc]

Originally Posted by raceguy2000

oh ...yeah....the performer intake....will it fit under the shaker hood?

here is a link to the official edelbrock info:

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...iac_perf.shtml

[MrPbody]

Yes, the Performer will fit under the shaker. Avoid the E-carb like the pague. Nobody running larger engines than 350 Chevys seem to be having success with them. Q-Jet is nearly always the best choice for a streeter.
The Fireball cam series was first introduced around '73. VERY obsolete. I too, ran one in my GTO back in the day. It performed well, but there are much better choices today. That was my point. Actually, very little of what Crane offers for Pontiac hasn't been obsolete for at least 20 years. We DO use their XRi ignition module. Pretty cool device.

As for "playing nice", well, I give advice based on day-to-day real world engine building. My particular area of expertise IS the Pontiac. I recommend the book because it contains none of the myth and superstition that abounds at all levels and in all makes , in this hobby (lest we forget, it IS a hobby). It has real-world combinations that work. Some are more expensive than others. It also separates the "old school" Pontiac guys from the modern era. The "old school" guys, even a few of the "big" names, are 100-200 horsepower off the pace becasue they WON'T embrace modern technology. I am not insulting or condescending, but merely standing my ground in a subject I happen to know as well or better than most that come to these boards.
FWIW, Jim Butler Performance is reproducing the Ram Air intakes with or without the crossover. The price is around $400. Not using the factory intake simply because it's iron is up to you. As long as you understand you're at a slight disadvantage and don't care, it's okay.
They're gonna allow ALL GM makes into Super Chevy (an oxy-moron, from my point of view) this year at VMP. We have some pump gas surprises for 'em! Unfortunately, I couldn't convince one of the blown/alcohol guys from Ohio to come down and show them a 6-second Poncho... They WILL get to see some in the 8s, though.
PAX

[volkerc]

Originally Posted by MrPbody

Yes, the Performer will fit under the shaker. Avoid the E-carb like the pague. Nobody running larger engines than 350 Chevys seem to be having success with them. Q-Jet is nearly always the best choice for a streeter.
The Fireball cam series was first introduced around '73. VERY obsolete. I too, ran one in my GTO back in the day. It performed well, but there are much better choices today. That was my point. Actually, very little of what Crane offers for Pontiac hasn't been obsolete for at least 20 years. We DO use their XRi ignition module. Pretty cool device.

As for "playing nice", well, I give advice based on day-to-day real world engine building. My particular area of expertise IS the Pontiac. I recommend the book because it contains none of the myth and superstition that abounds at all levels and in all makes , in this hobby (lest we forget, it IS a hobby). It has real-world combinations that work. Some are more expensive than others. It also separates the "old school" Pontiac guys from the modern era. The "old school" guys, even a few of the "big" names, are 100-200 horsepower off the pace becasue they WON'T embrace modern technology. I am not insulting or condescending, but merely standing my ground in a subject I happen to know as well or better than most that come to these boards.
FWIW, Jim Butler Performance is reproducing the Ram Air intakes with or without the crossover. The price is around $400. Not using the factory intake simply because it's iron is up to you. As long as you understand you're at a slight disadvantage and don't care, it's okay.
They're gonna allow ALL GM makes into Super Chevy (an oxy-moron, from my point of view) this year at VMP. We have some pump gas surprises for 'em! Unfortunately, I couldn't convince one of the blown/alcohol guys from Ohio to come down and show them a 6-second Poncho... They WILL get to see some in the 8s, though.
PAX

i'm leaving this post, this thread was about raceguy2000 and help he was seeking, yet, you are still trying to argue about suggestions I made, which are nothing more than suggestions.
you instead keep arguing that everybody else knows nothing and that you are the rocket scientist and they should all follow what you are saying. keep arguing with me about what i run in my car, who cares? and besides what the hell do you know what I run in my car now? YOU DON'T!

raceguy2000 wanted help. not me. all this here is about raceguy2000's engine.what part don't you understand !?
i don't need your advice. and because i don't, your up on my ignore list now.so keep writing away, i won't see it...

and what has this part of the post to do with the engine help raceguy2000 was looking to get:

"They're gonna allow ALL GM makes into Super Chevy (an oxy-moron, from my point of view) this year at VMP. We have some pump gas surprises for 'em! Unfortunately, I couldn't convince one of the blown/alcohol guys from Ohio to come down and show them a 6-second Poncho... They WILL get to see some in the 8s, though"

NOTHING!


...slight disadvantage my a**!!

[raceguy2000]

alright-

what about my side to side #'s on the connecting rods? will the book cover that? i don't really know what it means to me anyway, other than the measurement itself is out of spec. new bearings a fix?