Man Killed by Police in England INNOCENT

[-GS-]

Britian Says Man Killed by Police Had No Tie to Bombings

By ALAN COWELL
Published: July 24, 2005

LONDON, July 23 - Scotland Yard admitted Saturday that a man police officers chased and shot to death at point-blank range in front of horrified subway passengers on Friday had nothing to do with the investigation into the bombing attacks here.
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Senior investigators and officials of the Metropolitan Police said the man was believed to be South American; it was not known whether he was Muslim. No explosives or weapons were found on the man's body after the shooting, police officials said.

The incident sent shock waves through the country's 1.6 million Muslims, already alarmed by a publicly acknowledged shoot-to-kill policy directed against suspected suicide bombers. And it has dealt a major setback to the police investigation into suspected terrorist cells in London.

"This really is an appalling set of circumstances," said John O'Connor, a former police commander. "The consequences are quite horrible."

Azzam Tamimi, head of the Muslim Association of Britain, said: "This is very frightening. People will be afraid to walk the streets, or go on the tube, or carry anything in their hands."

The admission by the police that it had killed a man not involved in the investigation revived and fueled an already tense debate over the arming of British police officers. It also came after a series of police misstatements since July 7, when four bombing attacks on three subway trains and a double-decker bus in London killed 56 people, including the four suicide bombers, and injured hundreds of others.

On Thursday, four more attackers attempted to bomb three other subway trains and a bus, but their bombs failed to explode. On Friday, plainclothes police officers staking out an apartment followed a man who emerged from it, then chased him into the Stockwell subway station and onto a train. The man tripped and the police officers in pursuit fired five rounds at point-blank range.

After the shooting, Sir Ian Blair, the commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, said, "The information I have available is that this shooting is directly linked to the ongoing and expanding anti-terrorist operation."

The police then issued images taken from closed circuit television cameras of four men suspected of carrying out the failed attacks on Thursday and said that, while the man they shot may not have been one of the men in the photographs, he was still being sought as part of their investigation. "The man shot at Stockwell station is still subject to formal identification and it is not yet clear whether he is one of the four people we are seeking to identify and whose pictures have been released today," a statement said Friday.

"Nevertheless the man who was shot was under police observation because he had emerged from a house that was itself under observation because it was linked to the investigation of yesterday's incidents." the Friday statement said.

"He was then followed by surveillance officers to the station. His clothing and his behavior at the station added to their suspicions," the statement added, apparently referring to reports that the man was wearing bulky jacket on a summer day.

Throughout Saturday, the police refused to give any further details. Then, in the late afternoon, Scotland Yard issued a statement contradicting the earlier police comments.

"We believe we know the identity of the man shot at Stockwell Underground station by police, although he is still subject to formal identification," the new statement said. "We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday, 21st July."

The statement repeated that the man had been seen emerging from an apartment house under police surveillance and had been followed by officers.

"For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets," the statement said. It said the police had started a formal inquiry.

So far in the investigation, the police have detained two suspects. It was not clear whether those men were among the four caught on security cameras.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/24/in...rtner=homepage

[KustmAce]

Now who's better than the terrorists? This is getting fucking rediculous.

[thrasher]

No it's not. Innocent civilians desrve to die, didn't you know that? Especially those of minorities.

[ec437]

I say we ship over some american cops to handle the terrorist ass-whoopings. We're much better at it.

[MagicRat]

Like American cops have never shot anyone who was innocent?

English cops never carry guns. This is a complement to the peace and civility of English society - one that the terrorists are taking advantage of.
Can you imagine any American cop going to work for their entire career unarmed?

Obviously the cops need more training, but what do you do with a potential SUICIDE BOMBER who runs?

He has a bulky jacket on, runs for the tube and you have reasonable suspision he expects to die and take others with him. Of course you shoot to kill.
Shoot to wound.......not likely if you think he's a bomber.

I understand why the cops shot him, although it is regrettable. Next time though, if the cops tell you to stop, you better do so!

[jcsaleen]

London needs to....

A. Have a something like a patriot act
B. Declare the english version of marshall law

[ec437]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

Like American cops have never shot anyone who was innocent?

English cops never carry guns. This is a complement to the peace and civility of English society - one that the terrorists are taking advantage of.
Can you imagine any American cop going to work for their entire career unarmed?

Obviously the cops need more training, but what do you do with a potential SUICIDE BOMBER who runs?

He has a bulky jacket on, runs for the tube and you have reasonable suspision he expects to die and take others with him. Of course you shoot to kill.
Shoot to wound.......not likely if you think he's a bomber.

I understand why the cops shot him, although it is regrettable. Next time though, if the cops tell you to stop, you better do so!

For some reason, I feel the need to post a rodney king image here:



perhaps I should have stated myself better. We're much better at dettering the surrounding controversey... lol

Oh, and you made good points. I agree with most of them.

[T4 Primera]

When this incident first happened, an eye witness described them chasing the man onto a train, pinning him down and shooting him dead.

Later reports said he died of 5 gunshot wounds to the head.

At the time I turned and said to my wife - that's not an arrest, that's an execution, a very public execution.

[thrasher]

Yeah, the story does say point blank range. Seems very much like marshall law to me. In any case, I hope his family gets an obscene amount of money from the government.

[Raz_Kaz]

If he was a potential suicide bomber there is no way a cop would shoot from point lank range, he'd most likely keep his distance and shoot. Did it mention that the cops were in plain clothes? What would you do if someone you thought was a civilian was running after you with a gun?
Blair is soon going to feel the pressure of how his government is going to defend themselves with the onslaught of questionning from the general public

[KustmAce]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

He has a bulky jacket on, runs for the tube and you have reasonable suspision he expects to die and take others with him. Of course you shoot to kill.
Shoot to wound.......not likely if you think he's a bomber.

So after he trips, you catch him, pin him to the ground, and have an oppurtunity to arrest him, you shoot him in the head point blank 5 times instead?

Oh yes, that sounds logical.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by KustmAce

So after he trips, you catch him, pin him to the ground, and have an oppurtunity to arrest him, you shoot him in the head point blank 5 times instead?

Oh yes, that sounds logical.

Look, what part of suicide bomber do you not understand?
Wouldn't it be great for the suicide bomber to take out lots of cops as well as dozens of the public on a crowded subway platform?
The cops did not know what kind of detonation switch he had, or how he could have detonated it. Under the circumstances, their plugging the poor guy in the head may not have been ideal, but was understandable.

[Raz_Kaz]

Wheher you say it was accidentasl, preventable or unessecary one thing is for sure. The terrorists got exactly what they wanted. Those bombings changed the way police handle situations, it changed the every day commute...the war on terrorism has just begun, and the world leaders are already losing.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by Raz_Kaz

Wheher you say it was accidentasl, preventable or unessecary one thing is for sure. The terrorists got exactly what they wanted. Those bombings changed the way police handle situations, it changed the every day commute...the war on terrorism has just begun, and the world leaders are already losing.

I completely disagree.

Modern democracies always change. Cities and nations are always changing in response to countless changes and influences in the world.
Just because a society has changed a few things in the way it carries out its functions does not mean the terrorists have won.

The goals of the terrorists have nothing to do with the city.

The individual bombers want to kill themselves in a public fashion. Big deal, there are countless ways in which that can be done.

The terrorist organisers use whatever they can, including the actions of the bombers ) to bring more followers to their cause. Again, big deal, there are always some people stupid or naiive to be attracted to some cult or cause.

The fact that these terrorists have the ability to do their evil deeds actually says our societies are working, that is they allow people the freedom to do what they want.

[-GS-]

LONDON (AFP) - British police admitted a Brazilian electrician they shot dead in a London Underground train had nothing to do with the terror bombings, but said they will stick to a policy of shooting suspected suicide bombers in the head.

Brazilian Foreign Minister Celso Amorim, who had been scheduled to visit London before the incident, said he expected a "full investigation" into the killing of a 27-year-old Brazilian electrician Jean Charles de Menezes.

Menezes was pursued through a subway station before being cornered and shot repeatedly in the head.

Foreign Secretary Jack Straw Straw spoke by telephone with Amorim to express his regrets and assure him that there would be an inquiry, but said police must be able to deal effectively with the threat of a suicide attack.

Britain has been on edge since four suspected Islamic extremists staged suicide bombings on London subway trains and a bus on July 7, killing 52 people and injuring 700 others. A similar but apparently botched attack was launched last Thursday.

Straw's remarks were echoed by Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair, who said police confronted a grave threat from suicide bombers and had to act decisively.

Blair said the Brazilian was pursued because he had emerged from a block of apartments which police were watching as they hunted the four men who made a failed attempt to bomb subway trains and a bus last Thursday.

"It was firmly linked to the ongoing operation," Blair said.

Blair said the police were pursuing a "shoot-to-kill-in-order-to-protect policy" but conceded "somebody else could be shot" even while police try to ensure that does not happen.

He said "the only way to deal with this is to shoot to the head" because it ensured instant death for the would-be bomber and would reduce chances of the bomb detonating.

"It is drawn on the experience from other countries including Sri Lanka," he said.

Terrified subway passengers scattered in panic on Friday morning as plain-clothed police pursued Menezes, who relatives said was going to work, through Stockwell Underground station in south London.

Witnesses said the Brazilian -- described as looking "like a cornered rabbit" -- fell to the floor in a train carriage before a policeman standing directly above shot him five times in the head.

Britain's Independent Police Complaints Commission is due to hold an investigation into the incident under standard procedure for all deaths following police action.

British Islamic groups, worried that Muslims could be targeted by police, called for a public inquiry into the shooting.

Three of the suspected July 7 bombers were British-born Muslims of Pakistani descent, while the fourth was a Jamaican-born Briton who had converted to Islam.

As the controversy of the shooting raged, Blair said the police investigation into the bombings was advancing quickly and detectives believed that the four suspects in last Thursday's apparently botched attacks were still in Britain.

The police were benefiting from information gathered from the bombs, which the attackers abandoned in their rucksacks after they failed to go off.

According to The Observer newspaper, documents found in one of the rucksacks have led police towards a potentially vital clue -- a possible link between the two groups of attackers.

According to the paper, some of the suspected bombers from Thursday are believed to have been on a whitewater rafting trip in Wales attended by two of the July 7 bombers, Mohammad Sidique Khan and Shahzad Tanweer.

The trip could even have been a "bonding" exercise for all concerned, meaning the attacks were planned jointly, the paper said.

Blair said there was no proof yet of a link between the two groups of attackers.

Two men have now been arrested in what Blair described as Britain's biggest-ever police investigation. Both were detained during raids Friday in Stockwell, near where the Brazilian man was shot.

Police said Saturday that almost 500 people had called them after they released security camera images of the four suspected bombers, which were plastered over the front pages of Saturday's press.

Officers also raided an apartment in the Streatham area of south London, not far from Stockwell.

In another development, police said Sunday they had carried out controlled explosions on a suspicious package in a park in northwest London which appeared to be linked to the failed attacks on London's transport system.

In Islamabad, officials said Pakistani police detained scores more people, mostly Islamic prayer leaders, over the weekend as part of a continuing crackdown on extremists following the London bombings.

The three suspected July 7 bombers of Pakistani descent had visited Pakistan in the months before the attacks, prompting a search for a possible connection to radical groups there.