Help me spend my money

[spyderturbo007]

I am planning on putting some money into the Spyder. My current mods are in my signature. My initial idea was to have SBR install a EVO III 16g, 550cc injectors and a 190lph FP. This will run about $2000 with tax and dyno tuning.

I am starting to wonder if this is the right way for me to go. I still have the SMIC and fear that I will have a problem with high intake charge temps. If I go this route I am looking into getting an UICP & WI kit down the road, but will have to take it back for more dyno tuning.

As you can see, I still have the stock cat back....and NO I am NOT going to upgrade the cat back. I do not want to change the sound of the car at all. So with that said ......

I was also considering the following: Trying to fabricate my own FMIC and having the 16g installed by SBR. The problem is that there are no good DIY for FMIC piping while keeping your stock fog lights. Also WI seems so much cheaper and less of a hassle.


My goal: I would like to run low 13's high 12's on pump gas. But the more I look at different times for wrong wheel drive, it looks as though I will be lucky to break 13's.

What you you guys think?

[Shpyder]

With limited rescources and unlimited shit to do to your DSM (the basic economic problem as far as I'm concerned, lol), it's all about opportunity cost. I have $XXX, now I can either get this OR that, but not BOTH. So it takes time and several paychecks to eventually get where you want to. It's taken me a year to get my Spyder to cosmetically look what I always wanted it to look like (roll bar and coilovers in the mail), and the next thing is the engine...with all these random odd-jobs until I graduate, it'll probably take another year, but hey, it never stops.

I would say go ahead with all the SBR goodies. Youve got an SAFC, so youve got control also.

Next, get a GReddy 24R with piping. Check for used ones (I got a good deal, $550 shipped, slight dent). I'd choose GReddy, because install is a complete breeze (I installed mine), with minimal cutting, and you get to keep your fog lights.

Sigh...wrong wheel drive...yep. Well, I've heard some good things about Quaiffe, but I'm not sure if it actually compensates for lack of AWD. BUT, I have seen some AWD converted Spyders on cardomain ( I wished I saved the link!), so at least its comforting to know that's a possibility if you have the funds and the people.

2centz.

[kjewer1]

The 2g SMIC goes pretty far. I ran it into the 12s, but on race gas with AWD. With control over timing I think you could go farther, but thats a whole other can of [expensive] worms... I trapped enough to run 12s on pump, but without that perfect launch it didnt happen. In your case, I would expect high 13s in the same cirmumstances, but the launch is such a huge variable with FWD. Either way, the mph is there, which means the power is there. If you can do with less than ideal ET:MPH ratio, continue on as planned.

The 550s are a little small if you ever max out that evo16g. 660s will only make the timing problem worse however. So if you can keep the airflow to 40 lbs/min at most, the 550s will suffice. On race gas, you can go to 42 lbs. If you had something like DSMlink, the timing thing is not a problem of course. It's good to see that with such limited mods you already have the AFC and logger at least

I would suggest a small FMIC like the greddy, but water injection should also work if you take the time to learn about it and set it up properly. The FMIC will always be there though and never runs out.

Once you are satisfied with power output (mph), you can do things to help in the traction department later on. A diff was mentioned. Adjustable suspension that lets you stiffen up the rear at the track does wonders for traction. Good tires, etc.

[spyderturbo007]

So you think to start I should go with the SBR upgrades and add the WI at a later date?

I know that 660's will result in sky high timing over the 550's. I have also heard you say that you would sacrifice the higher timing for the added fuel because the higher timing can be "tuned around".

I am going to have it dyno tuned by SBR so you think I should go with the EVO III 16g, 190lph FP, 660cc injectors and the dyno tuning for now?

Then deal with the intercooling or water injection at a later date?

[kjewer1]

That is what I would do. Even if you have to keep the boost down to 18 psi or so, the turbo is still there ready to be turned up when your mods allow. Shit, I wonder if cams would let you hit ~35 lbs/min at low boost, allowing more flow with the same heat. With cams the turbo should max out around 20 psi, maybe a little more. The SMIC might do well with say 16-18 psi, but you'll still be moving ~35 lbs. Ah well, doesnt matter anyway, cams cost as much as a FMIC.

I dont think I would bother with the dyno tuning. I'd prefer street tuning. And since you can't max out the setup (for more than one short pull anyway) there is no point in trying to squeeze out the last hp. I think I would put that off until after the FMIC or whatever you go with next.

[guitarXgeek]

Originally Posted by 95 GSXracer

I dont think I would bother with the dyno tuning. I'd prefer street tuning. And since you can't max out the setup (for more than one short pull anyway) there is no point in trying to squeeze out the last hp. I think I would put that off until after the FMIC or whatever you go with next.

Word. I agree you should take the money you'd save from getting it dyno tuned and buy a FMIC instead. I think you would see a much better gain going that route instead of dyno tuning so early, like Kevin said.

The stock SMIC is actually not too bad. Hell, it cooled my "50 trim" at 17psi pretty damn well for the first 3 gears, after that it heat soaked pretty badly.

[96spyderman]

Give it to me!!! LMAO............or a FMIC.... I lean toward the first suggestion though.. he he he he

[JoeWagon]

If you are going to attempt a total fabrication for the FMIC, bolting on your turbo should also be attempted. The worst part is deciding whether you want to modify and tweak or pitch for the $300 install kit. I'd save money on the install of the turbo, skip dyno tuning, and go with 660s and custom FMIC. Don't look for a DIY FMIC kit because the parts aren't that hard. Jake explained what was needed to me... so just find someone to break down what bends you need.

[spyderturbo007]

Originally Posted by 95 GSXracer

I dont think I would bother with the dyno tuning. I'd prefer street tuning.

I see what you are saying, but I think I might spend the $125 just because I never had a car dyno'ed. I would also like to see what kind of HP I can make with the stock exhaust That might sound stupid, but oh well.

Originally Posted by JoeWagon

If you are going to attempt a total fabrication for the FMIC, bolting on your turbo should also be attempted.

I feel more comfortable attempting the FMIC fabrication over the turbo install because there are no rusted bolts to break. I'm sure I could do the turbo (hell, I put a clutch in my last car) but I think I will leave it to the pros. I would rather spend the extra money and make sure it is done right and truthfully, not have to worry about it.

[spyderturbo007]

Well, it's all set. I am going to take Kevin's advice and go with the EVO-III 16g, FIC 650cc FI and a Walboro 190lph FP.

Everything will be installed at SBR on July 5th. Total cost = $1986.44

If anyone is bored PLEASE stop by on the 5th, as I will be sitting there for a really long time with nothing to do. Hummm......I wonder if there is a bar close by

So anyway, on the 6th I will have a review of SBR's install job, customer service and some dyno numbers (I'm almost scared to find out). The dyno will probably be 200whp ...that would be my luck!

I just hope they don't screw up my new $4k paint job in the install process.

[spyderturbo007]

I am bringing this thread back to ask some more questions.

Anyone think I would be better going with a larger turbo while I am spending all of this money?

What about a 50 trim ($699 or $130 more than the EVO III 16G)?

http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=9&

I didn't know that 50 trims were so cheap :grin: !

Would it be a waste of time/money with the SMIC and stock cat back?

Would the 190lph FP and 660cc injectors be enough for the 50-trim?
I didn't know if lower boost on a larger turbo would be better with the SMIC than higher boost on the EVO III 16G. Mainly because of the increase in compressor efficiency with the larger turbo.

Also, I plan on running this exclusively on pump gas. I also remember Kevin saying something about how the 50-trim loves pump gas.

[JoeWagon]

Technically you could run the same airflow with both turbos, and the difference would be slightly slower spool and $130 more in the 50 trim. The "worth it" part is deciding if you're going to run the 50 trim past where the 16g would leave off. Low boost hasn't a need for much efficiency but if you are going with bigger fuel, you can pretty much just decide to step it up. Look into if the 190lph will support 660s.

Kevin said the car was most fun at the 16g level, but you might have a bigger smile when adding a FMIC/exhaust if the 50 trim is there.

EDIT>> your main questions remaining are if you can run slightly higher airflow on a more efficient turbo on pump gas, more specifically 50 trim over 16g, and also if a 190lph walbro will be enough for 660s.

[kjewer1]

The 190 is barely enough assuming pump gas and 11:1 AFR, 25 psi, and an absolute peak of 44 lbs/min (highest ever recorded as far as I know). You have a little more room to breathe on race gas. On a 50 trim, a 190 will not cut it in either scenario, unless you keep airflow down to 16g levels.

Dropping the 660s into my spread sheet using the pump gas/11:1 example, an EVO16g maxed at 44 lbs would give a IDC of 90%, very doable. For a 50 trim at 50 lbs/min, 103% IDCs. That will force AFR up to 11.3:1, not terrible, but there is no extra breathing room at all It is unlikely of course that you can max out a 50 trim on pump gas without a pretty serious setup (massive FMIC, intake mani, strocker perhaps, etc). Using race gas and 12:1, IDC is at 99%.

I think the 16g is your best bet for now. I usually do recomend going bigger so you have room to grow later, but you can't always trust people to upgrade the fuel system before cranking the boost up. It is tempting... The 50 trim you speak of is obviously a bolt on hybrid, which more than likely is on the same 7cm housing as the 16g, the turbine isn't much larger, so there is really no increase in VE, so airflow at a given boost level will be the same between the two turbos. Compressor efficiency is waay over rated, and has a miniscule effect on airflow:boost ratio. For poeple that have thier heart set on a 50 trim, a full garret version with a large hotside (stage 3 wheel, .82 housing) would provide a measurable increase in VE, which is worthwhile Aside from getting more airflow at the same boost, top end increases can be dramatic because of the drop in exhaust manifold pressure, or more accurately, the ratio of exhaust manifold pressure to intake manifold pressure...

Another point for running the EVO16g is if your budget expands next year, along with your fuel system and tuning knowledge, it is ver easy to sell a used EVO16g, and they keep thier resale value pretty well because of the following they now have.

I would suggest getting the 16g and working up the rest of the setup around it. This does two things. Gives you a clear cut challenge with clear cut goals for maxing out the 16g. And when you upgrade to a bigger turbo, the setup is already in place and the car is begging for a bigger turbo. And you'll learn a lot in the process, especially if you run a powerful datalogger, like DSMlink. Given your current budget, goals, and requirements (like stock catback), I think this makes the most sense. But you can't really go wrong either way.

This turned into a regular novel, hopefully something in there helps.