Value or Custom?

[96Civ]

I am asking all of you.... if you had a GTO, in which some of you do, including me, if you would restore it to origional color/interrior, put other factory options back on the car, or would you throw out that old 8-track player and sell it on ebay and paint it that awsome red you have always wanted, etc.. ?

[MrPbody]

That's a loaded question, to be sure. It would all depend on how complete and what year/model/special equipment the car has now. If it's a Ram Air car or SE, it's definitely worth restoring. If it's "just another GTO" (if there is such a thing), it isn't uncommon to see them modified.
My personal take is that if the car is a "virgin", it should be restored. If it has already been modified in the past, make it what you like!
If it's a '68 or '70, I know a man that WANTS that 8-track!

[MrPbody]

That's a loaded question, to be sure. It would all depend on how complete and what year/model/special equipment the car has now. If it's a Ram Air car or SE, it's definitely worth restoring. If it's "just another GTO" (if there is such a thing), it isn't uncommon to see them modified.
My personal take is that if the car is a "virgin", it should be restored. If it has already been modified in the past, make it what you like!
If it's a '69 or '70, I know a man that WANTS that 8-track!

I say if it's a super rare car restore it (if you were wanting to do that). If it's just a GTO with normal stuff it would be kinda hard, you could do a little of both without doing anything that you cant undo.

My GTO started out as a parts car, however it did not have alot of parts, in fact the only thing GTO about my GTO is the frame and body.
I had to use doors from a Sport LeMans as well as the deck lid. and this inside is Lemans GTO and Sport Lemans.
This kinda freed me from hacking a good car, I was able to cut and fab as much as I wanted.
If the car had been a Conv. GTO in good shape I would have sold it. I would build a Clone Conv. before cutting a real GTO Conv.
The Chevy guys dont really care about changing cars to SSs and it's very hard to spot them, my chevy bud can sometimes, but it's much easer to find a fake GTO.

[96Civ]

Yeah I have found it to be a very rare car. I usually get one of these two reactions:

"OMG YOU HAVE A GTO?!?!?"
-and-
"Whats a gto?"

I decided to keep my 8-track since it was origional with the car. Some of the things that can be changed back include the paint job and the color of the interior, so I guess it doesn't really matter because I wont be thinking about selling it for 15 years.

Why 15 years?

I have to tell you I had a factory AM radio in my 72 Lemans, I said to my dad, "Do you think I should kep this, it works fine" he said "Toss that crap, what would you ever use it for"
Ok now lets go 8 years later I have since tossed the radio after we talked about it and ran accross I guy "Glen" he sold a rail to summit racing for display inside the one in Ohio, anyhow he was taking $50 for working radios, I told my dad this he said "See you should have kept it" LOL

It's only $50 but even so it was $50. So keep that 8 track for sure.

I did the same thing with a factory intake, seems it was a HO pontiac intake, didnt know it at the time, to me it was a heavy cast iron POS, but it was worth keeping.

Take pictures of everything when and if you take it apart, as restore guides are good but it's not real world stuff. I will say this if you going to take your car apart replace everything under the hood and on the frame with Stainless Steel, it not only looks good, your kids, kids will be able to remove the stuff.

My car was from FL it was a project for another kid in PA that never got started beside the draining of the Diff gear oil that I found haveing it towed home, but it's life in the south save 90% of the car, but even so the bolts were nuts to take off, and when I took my 72 LX LeMans apart that lived its life in Erie PA it was even worse, an in most cases tighting the bolt till it snaped was the best thing to do.

You have a pic of your car?

[96Civ]

Reason why I was asking is because I could use the extra cash to start the project. The loan I took out to buy the car is the only thing keeping me from spending money to start it.

Yes, I have pics.

The link at the bottom

I'm getting the last pictures now, dude it's not an olds engine it's a pontiac engine, look on the drivers side of the engine in the front, the size of the engine will be cast into the engine. like 400

You got a good deal on the car, I know this 100% sure, on top of that you got a car thats has no AC or power anything, sombody ordered this car to race!!

The insides look dam good for what year it is, and the stuff thats really messed up can be replaced. As for the headliner take it and get it fixed if it's not messed up to bad in other places, you may find that a useing a little $5 hot gule gun works best.

As for as your trunk, they are all like that unless it's never been parked outside, they leak from the passenger side window corner, you cant really see it so put your hand under it and feel from the inside of the trunk.

You got a great deal for this car, alot of the work I had to do (like build it) you dont have to do! The engie bay looks great, its' greasy thats what you want.
As for as the engine you have a world of bolt ons to choose from, I will be happy to send you some links if you want.
Can you tell me the numbers on the heads you have 2 numbers or one letter and number on the center exaust ports, I will run the numbers and tell you what kinda heads you have ( I have the head book) if you want.

As far as your trunk you can get great repo parts as well as gas tanks.

Wish you lived closer I would love to see it up close!

I love the "OH SHIT" bar on the passenger side! LOL

[96Civ]

Originally Posted by ramairgto72

I love the "OH SHIT" bar on the passenger side! LOL

I already checked the engine code... it said it was a 71' Olds 455 Small Block. I will go check all the numbers tomorrow.

Whats an "OH SHIT" bar? Do you mean the tail piece that is missing?

I'm glad we have some pontiac enthusiasts here! The last classic car show, I saw only 1 GTO, it was a 67' and only 2 Lemans. None of them were 65's. I made fun of my best friend because I saw over a dozen chevelles.

I'm sure thats a Pontiac engine, besides Olds engines have a very big intake and the heads dont curv down like Pontiacs do. Also Olds intakes fit right on the block, pontiacs sit like a spyder on top and let air under them like the new Air Gap intakes for crappy chevys.

I'm sure it's a pontiac becasuse I can clearly see the Intake to waterpump bolt and the little dryed up coolent on the belly pan right under the coolent crossover that holds the upper Rad hose. You have a Pontiac engine and I bet my life on it!

I have 4 pontiac engines, and I have had my hands on many more! If you want to see an Olds 455 you should go here to my webpage http://www.geocities.com/the400andov...CK/indexB.html
thats a olds engine!

And over here we have a pontiac engine
http://www.geocities.com/ramairgto72/POST/RAMAIR.html
note the front of the engine and look at the rad hose to the intake it's the same as yours!

I could not find a drivers side view of my engine so those will have to do. The olds engine is my buds stroked 455, now 507.

The "OH SHIT" bar is the passenger side bar on the dash that your passenger grabs and says "OH SHIT" when you jump on the gas! lol they stoped putting them in I think in 70 so my 72 dose not have one..

You right man when you have seen one chevy SB you seen every last one, and every dick and jane has one, and they are mostly dicks LOL!!

I'm 100% sure thats a PMD engine I have no idea what numbers your running but do what I said and check the bottom drivers side of the block right inback and under the fuel pump. Olds engines have their fule pumps on the passenger side. Olds engines also have that funky fill tube (tho it can be removed as the pick of the engine of the olds I showed you) comming up in front of the engine.

I hope this dose not upset you to much, you are better off with a PMD engine then some Olds engine, Pontiacs make better power anyhow.

I'm sure once you look at these pictures you will see i'm correct, but you did get a better engine and a fitting engine for a GTO.

[96Civ]

You know what, this is a very big dilemma. I was told by the 2nd owner, (The guy I bought it from's neighbor) that the engine WAS origional. I checked the engine code, "YS" and it COULD be the origional engine! But something doesn't add up, because I was given 2 389 heads... so what are the heads on my engine now? I was also told by a fellow enthusiast that the car sounded exacly like a 455. But, I didn't think the 389 came with a powerglide 2 speed?

This has me spinning in circles. If it IS the origional engine, which it most likely is, then the car was definately a steal.

Tomorrow we will see.

Also, I have never heard anyone say it was the 'oh shit' handle before, but that makes perfect sense.

[MrPbody]

A '65 coupe ("post") is one of the more desirable GTOs. I've seen that car somewhere before, or one that looked just like it, including the rust spots...
There is no such thing as an "Olds 455 small block". 72's description of how to identify the Pontiac vursus the Olds is correct. The HO intakes were aluminum, same as the Ram Air IV intakes. All others, including SD (later than '63) are iron.
The bar on the dash was discontinued after '68. It was called "buddy bar" (the "oh shit" name comes from a younger set, regarding the handles above the doors on Jap cars and now some domestic). T/As had them through the early '80s. It's for hangin' on during tight corners. We missed it on my '70. Did a lot of mountain racing with that car. Speaking of which, you can make that car handle VERY well by adding the later suspension pieces ('70-'72).
There was no "PowerGlide" in Pontiacs unless they came with the Chevy straight 6. The 2-speed in the V8 cars is "Super Turbine 300", and shares only the shift pattern with PG. It (ST-300) is NOT a good candidate for high performance. TH400 is the ticket if you want to run an automatic. The Chevy crowd may tell you TH350, but a Pontiac V8 will tear one of those up toot-sweet, if the motor is built for performance.
The 12-bolt Chevy rear from Chevelle, '64-'72 will "bolt right in", with some minor changes in brakes and lines. That's the most plentiful rear out there that can take any serious power. The 8.2 Pontiac in there isn't a BAD rear, but it won't take too many launches before breaking internal stuff. The 8.5 is pretty good, too, but kinda rare (with A-body mounting points).
All in all, a nice car with a TON of potential. Do a nice job on it!

I think it was a great buy , did you see how it's all non power anything! Man thats a clan engine bay.
Pbody take a good look at his water pump, I think thats a pre68? If it is and it's orignal on the block, he can forget it being a PMD 455 for sure, however it opens up nice low CC heads.

Wow what a fun car to think about, so much I would love to do to that car, the insides are dam good looking and mostlikely not deen much to go have fun in.

I never knew it was called a "buddie bar" however I kinda like the "Oh Shit bar" better.

I hate telling him it's not what he wanted but feel kinda good it's not an Olds.

dude you have a great car with a future of fun in the sun and street cruzing at night!!

I really dont see that as a PG, hes still got the orignal shift on the colum that works as you can see in one of the pictures the Zbar type factory setup to shift the trans, and no way no how would a PG work the way it's set up now.

Hopefuly he has a TH400 but if it came with a 389 it may be the 350 I really dont know what engines got the TH350 under 400 cubes.

I hope you keep the pictures comming, if you want i'm sure P body or myself will help you with any questions. I also have lots of extra stuff left over from my frame off, I know my A body like the back of my hand and am willing and able to lend a answer or few.

Before you start doing anything I would pick up a "Restore Book" for GTOs I know of only one, the same one I bought it has ID tag info as well as body mounting points, it's worth the money even if you dont plan a frame off restore.

I will see if I can find a trans pan guide to help you find out what pan you have. however a little quickie is if its boxed like it's a TH350 and if it's kinda of a box with a point faceing the front it's a TH400.

Hes right about PMD engines eating TH350s I had a factory 2jet 350 pontiac that ate my trans up after I swaped in hedders and a HEI. it had nothing as far as top end, but man it would run from 1 block to the next light.

Pbody did you see the intake it looks like an old Offy..

Thats the kinda car I would like to build next, I'm not nuts on the 68-69s but 66-67 are just sexy!

Civ like I said get the numbers off the center head exaust ports, it will give us a better Idea what kinda power this engine has.

I'm looking forward to more pictures fill up that webpage!! LOL

[MrPbody]

For some odd reason, I can view the pics up to the last body shot. I can't see any of the engine bay or interior. It may be something with my computer. Don't really know.
If it has a column shifter, the VIN should be checked to be certain it's not a "clone". I don't recall seeing any column-shift GTOs before '67 (that doesn't mean they don't exist, just that I've never seen one). The "237" at the beginning of the VIN is of no help, as it indicates "LeMans", which GTO was an optional package on in '65. If it's a "236", it's a Tempest. You must submit the entire VIN to Pontiac Historic Services and get your "build sheet". That will tell you if the car was ordered as GTO or it's been "cloned". Clones have become fairly common. In general, we (restoration people) don't have a problem with that UNLESS it's being sold as the real deal, and "clone" status not stated clearly. There have been recent court battles resulting in fraud convictions for those mis-representing GTOs that are really LeMans or Tempest bodies, rebadged.
TH350 was introduced in '69. It "fits" wherever ST-300 was (including driveshaft length). The transmission is easily recognized by the shape of the pan. ST-300s and TH-350s all have a rectangular pan with a corner lopped off. PGs say "PowerGlide" on them, and have a "complete" rectangular shape. ST-300s don't say anything, except the ID stuff on the tag. TH-350 will have two distinct "detent slots" in the forward gears (when you move the shifter, you'll feel them) and a detent cable, unlike any of the others. TH-400 pan is shaped somewhat like Texas or Ohio, very different from the others.
Another book to get is Jim Hand's "How to Build Max-performance Pontiac V8s". I may have already mentioned this, but it deserves to be said again. It sheds a lot of light on the myth and superstition that abounds in this hobby. Jim managed to get his 4,100 lb. LeMans wagon into the low 11s on 93 octane with a hydraulic flat-tappet cam. He offers over 20 years of trial-and-error, regarding building the monster for street use. Accurate and well written.
For more Pontiac-related stuff, go to:
performanceyears.com
boyleworks.com (musclecars)
classicalpontiac.com

All three of these sites are dedicated to the Injun, and have very good forums. Best of all, nobody there will tell you to "just put a Chevy in it".